'Our Jack'

[sketchley kid]

Sort this one out..........I have my opinion.

[GriffMJ]

I think North Staffs had a tank battalion in WW2 didnt they?

[Graham Stewart]

154th Regt, Royal Armoured Corps - converted 1/1/1942 from 9th Bn, North Staffs formed May 1940.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by sketchley kid

Sort this one out..........I have my opinion.

I don't think it is literally a Tank Beret. It is just that the RTR were the first unit to be officially issued with a beret (black in their case) at public expense and during WW2.

In 1946 a blue beret was proposed for all regiments and corps as a replacement for the General Service Cap that had been issue since 1943. This was finally agreed and funded from 1947, but it still took several years for all units to receive them. As they had been initially associated with the Tanks they were often referred to at first by the troops as a 'tank beret'.

Information from WY Carman's dress of the British Army.

[Mike Jackson]

154 Regt RAC was formed from 9th Bn North Staffordshire Regiment (9 N Staffs), 224 Infantry Brigade on 1 January 1942. The other battalions in 224 Infantry Brigade did not convert to armour, and it is not known why 9 N Staffs was selected for this new role. As 154 Regt RAC, 9 N Staffs joined 36 Army Tank Brigade (36 Army Tk Bde) which had, together with HQ 34 Army Tk Bde and HQ 35 Army Tk Bde been formed on 1 December 1941. HQ 36 Army Tk Bde was itself formed by the conversion of HQ 205 Indep Inf Bde (Home). 154 Regt RAC was the senior regiment within 36 Army Tk Bde, the others being 156 Regt RAC (formed by conversion of 11th Bn Highland Light Infantry (11 HLI)) and 157 Regt RAC (formed by the conversion of 9th Bn The Hampshire Regiment (9 Hampshire). During its short existence 36 Army Tk Bde trained in the UK. It was not committed to operations, although it can be assumed that the constant demand for trained soldiers led to the Brigade’s regiments having to find successions of officers and men for posting to other units at home and abroad. HQ 36 Army Tk Bde and its units disbanded on 30 Jul 43, reportedly because of manpower shortages throughout the RAC.
It is reported, but not confirmed, that 154 Regt RAC wore a regimental arm badge on BD:
154 Regt RAC 9 N Staffs.jpg

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

154 Regt RAC was formed from 9th Bn North Staffordshire Regiment (9 N Staffs), 224 Infantry Brigade on 1 January 1942. The other battalions in 224 Infantry Brigade did not convert to armour, and it is not known why 9 N Staffs was selected for this new role. As 154 Regt RAC, 9 N Staffs joined 36 Army Tank Brigade (36 Army Tk Bde) which had, together with HQ 34 Army Tk Bde and HQ 35 Army Tk Bde been formed on 1 December 1941. HQ 36 Army Tk Bde was itself formed by the conversion of HQ 205 Indep Inf Bde (Home). 154 Regt RAC was the senior regiment within 36 Army Tk Bde, the others being 156 Regt RAC (formed by conversion of 11th Bn Highland Light Infantry (11 HLI)) and 157 Regt RAC (formed by the conversion of 9th Bn The Hampshire Regiment (9 Hampshire). During its short existence 36 Army Tk Bde trained in the UK. It was not committed to operations, although it can be assumed that the constant demand for trained soldiers led to the Brigade’s regiments having to find successions of officers and men for posting to other units at home and abroad. HQ 36 Army Tk Bde and its units disbanded on 30 Jul 43, reportedly because of manpower shortages throughout the RAC.
It is reported, but not confirmed, that 154 Regt RAC wore a regimental arm badge on BD:
Attachment 106865

That is a very interesting rundown of events that are poorly known. There were some 11 Armd Divs formed but only 8 saw active service.

After the invasion of Italy and then the D-Day landings the steady attrition of infantry became continuous and many units were combed out for replacements. I can well imagine this happening to the erstwhile infantry of the 36 Army Tank Bde.

One thing that seems especially significant is that he is wearing (possibly experimental) blue patrol uniform, a uniform that was apparently only sparingly issued during the latter months of WW2 as part of a debate on the return of some kind of ceremonial dress.

[Postwarden]

Altogether an interesting photo.

The blue uniform is likely to have been the inter-war blue patrols that soldiers could purchase at their own expense. To quote Regulations for the Territorial Army 1936 "Provided that no expense to the public or Association funds is incured, Warrant Officers, NCOs and men may be permitted to provide themselves with a serge jacket and trousers".

This is described in Appendix XXX of the 1936 Regulations as Patrol shape and in blue serge (dark green for rifle regiments). The uniform was only to be worn "at military entertainments, dances, social gatherings, whist drives etc". I believe a similar concession was made for Regular Soldiers.

Also of interest is the wireless signals badge on his arm. This was widely worn by armoured crewmen qualified as Driver Operators and Gunner Operators and is listed as their trade badge in ACI 1236 of 16th September 1944.

Jon

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Postwarden

Altogether an interesting photo.

The blue uniform is likely to have been the inter-war blue patrols that soldiers could purchase at their own expense. To quote Regulations for the Territorial Army 1936 "Provided that no expense to the public or Association funds is incured, Warrant Officers, NCOs and men may be permitted to provide themselves with a serge jacket and trousers".

This is described in Appendix XXX of the 1936 Regulations as Patrol shape and in blue serge (dark green for rifle regiments). The uniform was only to be worn "at military entertainments, dances, social gatherings, whist drives etc". I believe a similar concession was made for Regular Soldiers.

Also of interest is the wireless signals badge on his arm. This was widely worn by armoured crewmen qualified as Driver Operators and Gunner Operators and is listed as their trade badge in ACI 1236 of 16th September 1944.

Jon

Yes Jon, I think that you could well be right. The 1936 uniform was itself based on an earlier blue patrol uniform that had been worn in India since the late 1890s and a similar uniform authorised (at individual expense) as a cycling dress (of all things!) just before WW1. These patterns were used as the basis for the 1936 uniform that was introduced (funded) for the Coronation of George VI. Interestingly the same style of uniform was issued again in an experimental pattern at the end of WW2 and that in turn led to No1 Dress provided for our current Queen's Coronation in 1953. It is notable that all of these uniforms are historically linked and had only minor differences.

[sketchley kid]

It was a 'tank' beret...'Our Jack' was demobbed in 46 with a rank of SSM.
Jack was called up to the North Staffs in 1940..
During his time with them he bought the 'Blues' off a hard up regular for 12/6 old money (He gave it to me in 1945.)
Jack was a very good radio op and was transfered to the 13/18th. Hussars, where by D Day he was a Sgt.tank commander.
Knowing Jack my opinion is that this is a Bull**** photo taken later.
I do have his diary from D Day to early 46.

[Hussar100]

I've just finished reading a selection of books about the Northants Yeomanry and the Notts Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry. Probably the best first hand accounts of D Dav to VE Day I've read of late. The yeomanry got it tough from D Day onwards. Not something I was aware of before now.

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by Hussar100

I've just finished reading a selection of books about the Northants Yeomanry and the Notts Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry. Probably the best first hand accounts of D Dav to VE Day I've read of late. The yeomanry got it tough from D Day onwards. Not something I was aware of before now.

Try the Staffordshire Yeomanry too. I think that single regiment spent more time on active operations in the Middle East and NW Europe than any single regular armoured regiment of the British Army - all the way from Syria to northern Germany. There were others with an equivalent record including many Yeomanry Gunners - almost non-stop from the early days of the BEF to VE Day.

[sketchley kid]

May be of interest.......'Our Jack's' original Sea horse, and comment to me from 'Pat Hennessey'.

[Mike Jackson]

Originally Posted by sketchley kid

May be of interest.......'Our Jack's' original Sea horse, and comment to me from 'Pat Hennessey'.

Is that the Pat Hennessey who landed on D Day at age 17 and ended his service career in the 1980s as a Wing Commander RAF? Mike

[Hussar100]

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

Try the Staffordshire Yeomanry too. I think that single regiment spent more time on active operations in the Middle East and NW Europe than any single regular armoured regiment of the British Army - all the way from Syria to northern Germany. There were others with an equivalent record including many Yeomanry Gunners - almost non-stop from the early days of the BEF to VE Day.

It'll be a close run thing between them and the Sherwood Rangers then who apparently have the most battle honours.

It seems the reason so many yeomanry outfits finished up as gunners etc was that the war office didn't know what to do with them in 1939. The SR for example spent several pointless years in Palestine before being converted to coastal gunners and finally armour.

[Mike Jackson]

It seems the reason so many yeomanry outfits finished up as gunners etc was that the war office didn't know what to do with them in 1939.

I'm not sure that is correct. The process of reroling 33 Yeomanry cavalry regiments to Gunners started in 1922. I believe that one of the many problems facing the authorities when the decision was taken to mechanise the eight horsed Yeomanry cavalry regiments in 1 Cav Div was that there were insufficient battle-worthy tanks to go round. Hence the RWY manning searchlights and the SRY as Coast Gunners - on a temporary basis - and the NSY and Cheshire Yeomanry disappearing into the R Signals. Mike