RN Cap badge?? - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

RCN · #1 03-07-12, 04:34 PM

Is this an RN Cap badge & if so what period?

RCB Bryan

Old Sailor · #2 03-07-12, 09:52 PM

It is certainly British or Commonwealth. The Form of the anchor with a solid metal shank and flukes with the stock and ring embroudered and the embroidery at the end of the flukes. The chain too. All typical of RN badges. However I don't know about the belt around it. Many auxiliary service badges had a belt around the anchor. The Royal Fleet auxiliary still does. But I have never seen one like that.

http://servicecomm.co.uk/catalogue.p...cers-cap-badge

RFA junior rate? (Not that they have ever been over fond uf uniforms)

J:

Phil2M · #3 03-07-12, 10:40 PM

Hi,

Its a UK Harbour Police cap badge. The exact one escapes me at the present moment. I will sleep on it.

RFA ratings wear a circular badge with an anchor central and letters RFA above http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=60555

Phil

Old Sailor · #4 04-07-12, 09:51 AM

The police idea seems a good one. I would also look at the Auxiliaries besides the RFA. Most or all of which now defunct.
There ws the Royal Maritime Auxiliary Service (RMAS),
The Royal Naval Auxiliary Service (RNXS)
The Port Auxilairy Service (PAS)
The Admiralty Yard Craft Srvice (YCS)
The Fleet Coaling Service
The Fleet Dredging Service
there was even, before the RNXS an Admiralty Ferry Crews Association

Many of these were the same organisation at different times through mergers and renaming.

Another thought that has just occurred (but I have not been able to check it on the net) is the uniforms worn by admiralty civilian staff. People like hall porters, messengers, stewards, security staff and the retired senior rates who acted as training officers and divisional CPOs at BRNC Dartmouth. In my day they wore plain six button reefers with a yellow metal foul anchor on each collar. I just don't remember ever seeing one in a cap.

J:

Phil2M · #5 04-07-12, 10:35 AM

Hi,

Admiralty Civilian Staff cap badge http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=64250 now no longer worn.

Phil

Guzzman · #6 04-07-12, 03:08 PM

Hi Bryan

Old Sailor is right about this being a badge worn by civilian staff employed by the Admiralty (later by Ministry of Defence (Navy)). And it was worn by civilians employed at Dartmouth, porters, etc, as he details. The reason he doesn't remember seeing it worn as a cap badge is because it isn't. It is actually one of a pair of collar badges BUT they were frequently UNOFFICIALLY worn as a cap badge. They were worn from about 1920 until the mid-1980s. I have had this information verified by BRNC Dartmouth.

The cap badge Phil shows is the badge worn by civilian specialists employed by the Admiralty Board. They tend to be people such as salvage engineers. There was a documentary shown here a couple of years ago about the Ice Patrol Ship H.M.S. Endurance showing how it nearly sank. Specialist civilian engineers were sent to the ship in an attempt to save her and get her back to the UK. Several of them can be seen wearing overalls bearing this badge. As far as I am aware this badge is still in use but I could be wrong (I often am!). I will check on this and get back to you.

Pete

Guzzman · #7 04-07-12, 03:46 PM

Hi Bryan

Just checked re my last message. I can confirm that what you have is a Civilian Admiralty (later Ministry of Defence (Navy)) employees badge. However, now that I have checked on the details rather than attempting to quote them from memory (never a good idea I find) I realise that I gave you the details the wrong way round! It IS a cap badge and it was often incorrectly worn as lapel badges. It was worn by people such as porters and messengers as previously stated and was introduced in 1928. It ceased to be worn in the 1980s as I said. This is the information that was confirmed by BRNC as stated!

As Old Sailor stated ex-CPOs employed on the staff at BRNC wore a lapel badge in the form of a stylised anchor without the garter device.

Phil's badge is described as:-

Badge Organisational, RN Admiralty Board Civilian Personnel
Item No. 8455-99-415-5776, Pattern No. D00406.

As far as I am aware it is still in use. It is worn by the sort of civilian specialists I referred to earlier. If it is now out of use I would be pleased to know when it ceased to be used so I can update my records.

Sorry about getting it back to front earlier. I just get so excited talking about badges!

Pete

sailorbear · #8 04-07-12, 07:24 PM

Hi Pete, Just out of curiosity, what sort of head dress would the badge phil has be worn on? I believe the specialist team sent out to the Endurance was from Serco Marine who hold the contract to provide the majority of marine services to the MOD/Navy, and as far as I have ever seen the only head gear I have seen them wear are bennie's and safety helmets (though back in 2000 when they were Serco Denholm and I worked for them they did issue me with a grey baseball cap with the SD ensign logo on it!)

Regards Tony

Phil2M · #9 04-07-12, 07:45 PM

Please excuse me whilst I go away and cry. I have passed on 3 of these badges being offered for sale, based on being told they were Harbour Police.

Thank you Guzzman for the info on my Admiralty badge, much appreciated.

Phil

RCN · #10 04-07-12, 07:50 PM

WOW! what have I started?

I did not expect so many detailed responses,
thanks mates for all firing in your thoughts!

Its out of my period of interest tho but certainly good to be educated on something I did not know!

RCN Bryan

Guzzman · #11 05-07-12, 08:01 AM

Hello All

The major thing I have learnt about naval badge collecting is that you never stop learning! There is hardly a day passes when I don't learn something new!

Tony - I have absolutely no idea what sort of headgear this badge is supposed to be worn on or under what circumstances. I should think that it is very rarely worn! I can understand it being used as as a design on overalls - especially if working in an official capacity abroad - but otherwise I shouldn't imagine it's used very often. And, yes, I believe Serco Marine are the company of choice for MoD (Navy). I'll have to watch my recording of the Endurance programme again to see what else is on the overalls apart from this badge.

Pete

sailorbear · #12 05-07-12, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guzzman

Hello All

The major thing I have learnt about naval badge collecting is that you never stop learning! There is hardly a day passes when I don't learn something new!

Tony - I have absolutely no idea what sort of headgear this badge is supposed to be worn on or under what circumstances. I should think that it is very rarely worn! I can understand it being used as as a design on overalls - especially if working in an official capacity abroad - but otherwise I shouldn't imagine it's used very often. And, yes, I believe Serco Marine are the company of choice for MoD (Navy). I'll have to watch my recording of the Endurance programme again to see what else is on the overalls apart from this badge.

Pete

Hi Pete, Could'nt aggree more! I learn something new about badges nearly every day (and quite often that my assumtions are frequently wrong!) The team that did Endurance also did the (ex British upholder class) Canadian submarine that caught fire a couple of years ago, I have a copy of International Fleet Review somewhere that covers the salvage operation, I'll have to dig it out and see if there are any examples of insignia displayed?

When I worked for Serco (as Serco Denholm) in 2000 we wore a light grey and red uniforms, but the only insignia was the SD ensign logo worn on a grey combat jumper and on red tee shirts, rugby shirts and polo shirts but dont remember seeing the badge in question, however at that time serco only covered the "in port" marine services that included tugs, ferries and such things as water, fuel, slop and ammunition barges with the Royal Maritime Auxiliary Service (RMAS) being responsible for mooring and salvage and most "out of port" operations and other contractors covering range safety.

With Serco now operating virtually all govenment marine services it is likely they picked up a lot of the activities previously undertaken by purely MOD employed personnel, so I assume they may well have adopted their insignia also??

Curiously, I also worked for the RMAS in 2000 and despite being a govenment department neither officers or ratings wore any insignia at all (other than officers rank shoulder boards on tropical shirts) we did have RN working rig available to us (coveralls, No8 action working dress shirts & trousers, steaming bats, combat jumpers and pussers foulies) but very few people wore it prefering to wear their own civilian cloths (in my case a serco tee shirt, frowned upon as they were the "opporsition")

Regards Tony

Guzzman · #13 05-07-12, 04:24 PM

Hi everyone

Many thanks for the info Tony.

Just to round things off a bit I have added some images of the badges we have been discussing. These are badges from my own collection. As said earlier Bryan's cap badge was often unofficially used for lapel badges and the first image is of a pair of these badges which have been used in this way. The second image is of a joined pair of the lapel badges worn by ex-CPOs on the staff at BRNC. And the third picture shows these badges being worn. The picture dates from 1973.

Pete

Admiralty Civilian Personnel.jpg

Ex-CPO Instructor BRNC.jpg

Mr. Litton, 1973.jpg