Beds

[talavera48]

It has been brought to my attention this has been posted on another thread:

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...t=32504&page=2

"Despite my good intentions this well respected seller chose not to accept my advice? This reproduction Bedfordshire Regiment all Gm example is still listed;

http://www.britisharmybadges.com/vie...h=51657&phqu=2

.. so please if you collect WW1 Regular Infantry Economy badges avoide this one, the real McCoy is voided in ALL cases!

Andy"

Since Andy has decided to bring our (I thought incomplete) discussion onto this public forum I thought I'd fill in a few details.

The discussion went like this:

Friday 2 August

"David,
there were several patterns of 1916 Beds all Gm badges, all were voided! This one's a reproduction

http://www.britisharmybadges.com/vie...h=51657&phqu=2

Best regards

Andy"

Tuesday 6 August - 2 August was my birthday and I was away for the weekend.

"Hi Andy,

I'd be interested to hear your evidence before I take it down.


Regards,


David."

Tuesday 6 August

"David, believe me the genuine badges are all voided and the slider on your badge is also very modern! I'm a million percent certain it is not right!

Best regards

Andy"

Tuesday 6 August

"I'll bear that in mind Andy."

Wednesday 7 August

"David,
I have identified only three die patterns for the Beds EI (some other Regts have a lot more), all of which are voided!

Best regards

Andy"

Now, I'm certainly not arrogant enough to suggest I don't get things wrong and I may be wrong on this occassion. Hopefully, anyone who knows me or knows anything about me though will quickly accept I am not trying to con anyone out of £15.

Anyone who has visited my website recently will probably also realise badges are not my highest priority at the moment.

When I'm not selling fakes at £15, I am running more than £1 billion of clients' investments (pensions and ISAs etc), then I'm on husband and father duties and at present I'm also trying to buy a property and organise my brother's funeral. I hope people can bear with me if I don't react as quickly as they might like.

So, back to the e-mail conversation.

1) Andy states categorically it's a fake.

2) I ask for evidence.

3) Andy asks me to believe him and tells me he's 1,000,000% sure.

4) I say I'll take that "evidence" into account.

5) Andy tells me HE has identified three voided patterns he considers genuine.

It seems I haven't jumped to attention quickly enough.



Well, I'd like to believe users of this forum seek more concrete evidence than this.

I suspect people only become a million percent sure of something when they realise they can't demonstrate any reason to be 100% sure. As though exagerration strengthens their argument. As a professional investor I'm well aware how rarely I am even 100% sure of something.

Sadly, this is an increasingly cynical hobby. However, one issue I have is that people are quick to jump to a conclusion despite a lack of evidence. As anyone who spends time looking for evidence (whether that is a scientist or someone like me professionally investigating investment options) ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT THE SAME AS EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE.

Andy's OPINION is that all Bedfordshire economy badges were voided. Andy's OPINION is that the slider "is also very modern" (NO evidence provided here either). Andy's OPINION is that he has identified three die patterns (with the implicit suggestion that if he has not identified any others then they never existed).

While I have no doubt lots of helpful and accurate information is passed on through this site, I would implore users to differentiate between opinion and fact. Even if Andy has spoken. Arrogance and hubris will do nobody any favours.

Perhaps there is a forum member who actually has some evidence on the subject? I repeat, I'm entirely willing to accept I may have got this one wrong and will willingly remove the item at that point.

David Smith (proprietor of http://www.britisharmybadges.com).

[High Wood]

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=28338

here is a link to another thread about the non-voided all brass Bedfordshire Regiment cap badge.

[talavera48]

Thanks High Wood,

I personally wouldn't write off your badge as a fake either, although it may not be a WW1 economy issue.

I remember having a similar discussion with a different forum member a couple of years back. I removed a (similarly inexpensive) badge from my site after he insisted it was a reproduction. Some 18 months later he came back and asked to buy that very same badge from me (it was still in my 'unsure' box). He then proudly displayed it in his album as one of his favourite badges. I can only assume he uncovered some new information in the intervening 18 months to convince him his earlier adamant position was not in fact valid.

I certainly had not heard the regimental museum angle (I'm going to make a confession here... I don't actually read everything on this forum). It is possible they were being produced for the museum both with lugs and sliders at different times?

[Charlie585]

I'll probably live to regret this post but this one has bothered me all day and I'm up late with little to get up for in the mornings of late. They say that the Devil makes work for idle hands, so here goes

This is a bit of an unfortunate situation as I see it and although the topic is relevant and may certainly be of interest to some it is a shame to see that lines are being drawn in the sand over a £15 badge.

I can understand the reasons for the previous spat that saw members of the forum attempt to out a previously trusted and admired dealer for some of his dealings which as I recall involved allegations of out and out attempts to deceive on fairly high value badges.

That episode wasn’t a pleasurable experience by any means and I am loath to hark back to it given the ill feeling that was present at the time and the damage it did in my opinion to the forum. I will say though that I can see the justification for private members of the hobby to speak up when they feel that they and their friends are being seen off on a wholesale basis.

What I don’t seem to be able to reconcile is the situation where one badge dealer feels it necessary to publicly bad mouth another dealer on what is essentially an amateur hobbyist’s forum thereby forcing him into having to bare his soul in his defence. That said, the offended party has rounded in a fitting and worthy manner and opened a so far enjoyable and pertinent discussion on the badge in question.

Many of you who read my posts will no doubt note that I can be pretty outspoken at times and that I’m not afraid to jump in to a discussion, even when it is getting heated. Sometimes I even manage to act as a voice of moderation though that isn’t the result in every case and sometimes even I feel the odd pang of regret when I feel that I may have overstepped the mark.

The reason that I feel justified in making some of my outspoken posts (at least those on topic) is that I am engaging as a collector with fellow hobbyists in relevant discussions concerning aspects of our hobby. This without doubt often turns to the subject of dealers; they are after all part of the equation, though in certain circumstances this is best done privately.
It is my belief that there is a time and a place for all relevant discussion and on occasion even for that which isn’t really relevant to the main business of the hobby though this can lead to those moments of regret if one isn’t careful.

That said, I feel very strongly that it is not the place for one dealer to single out another dealer publicly in order to shame them by expressing a negative opinion of their wares, regardless of any member’s past input or perceived standing and no matter how worthy their intent, especially over a low value item. It isn’t gentlemanly and it isn’t in my opinion really acceptable.
An alternative might have been to privately invite an open discussion where both parties could express their opinions and experience of the badge in dispute in a calm and polite fashion whereby the whole membership or at least those with an interest might have learned from the salient points covered, rather than one dealer expressing his unmoving opinion in what comes across as a hostile manner, not taking into consideration the fact that as has been highlighted, people have lives outside of the hobby. Should that invitation have been declined then so be it, a shame maybe but not the end of the world.

No one is perfect are they and I mean no one! So if dealers are going to continue to contribute, though not too many feel the need to, welcome as they are, maybe it would make good business sense to temper the level of egotism somewhat and learn to deal with people in a somewhat less abrasive and authoritarian manner, we are after all not in the army are we!

Speaking as an ex serviceman and in mitigation for the member to which that comment is aimed, I fully understand that this takes a fair bit of time and no small amount of practice.

Let’s hope then that the lessons are learned and that harmony can prevail within the ranks of the membership’s dealers, after all there are enough rogues out there intent on real deceit without the need for those who consider themselves and wish to be known as the good guys to be at each other’s throats.
Who knows what might be achieved if you all worked together as some seem to be able to with a sense of unity whilst maintaining their independence. Good luck to all involved and please try to keep it friendly gents it gives us lesser mortals something to live up to.

Regards to all.

Ry

[Phil2M]

I am glad to have learnt from this that David is a forum member.

David, I am sorry to read about the loss of your brother, my condolences to you and your family.

Regards,

Phil

[Charlie585]

Originally Posted by Phil2M

I am glad to have learnt from this that David is a forum member.

David, I am sorry to read about the loss of your brother, my condolences to you and your family.

Regards,

Phil

I share the sentiment that Phil has expressed as well David, my apologies for not forwarding it sooner.

Thanks Phil.

Ry

[Phillip Herring]

I'm curious as to the origins of the non-voided brass Bedfordshire badge with slider as I have had one in my collection for over thirty years.

Phil

[John Mulcahy]

I cannot provide proof one way of the other whether the Bedfordshire badge was produced un-pierced as a wartime economy measure.

However I can provide some circumstantial evidence that the non-piercing of badges may not have occurred other than for the R.A., R.E. & A.S.C.

In my research of the RACD Register of changes I have only made records of two entries for un-pierced forage cap badges. Those two are in vol 16 which covers the period 1 Jan 1915 – 31 Dec 1921.

Page 31 of that volume shows an entry 26 June 1916 approving the production of un-pierced badges for the R.A., R.E. & A.S.C. This entry is signed by the Chief Ordnance Officer at the time - J. Steevens. Later, on 18 Nov 1916, recorded on page 53 of the same volume is an entry saying that … “the result of adoption of un-pierced badges has been somewhat quicker delivery at slightly reduced cost. I do not consider that my requirements of these badges will, in future be so great as to warrant the continuation of what the units no doubt consider disfigurement of badges. ” the entry ends with “I assume I may order pierced badges & thus eliminate probable complaint”. The request is marked approved with the comment “The un-pierced badges were only [word eligible] a temporary emergency” you can see it is signed by the A.D.D.C , Q.M.G.(7). My images of these entries are below and note they cross reference each other.


I have found nothing else on un-pierced forage cap badges. It appears to me as if this means that the “experiment “ to supply R.A., R.E. & A.S.C un-pierced badges begun c. June 1916 did not prove very advantageous and was stopped from c. Nov 1916 onwards.

The reason why I emphasize the word ”may” in the second paragraph above is that all the above is not direct proof that un-piercing of forage cap badges did not extend beyond the corps above . I say this as unlike the recording of all GM pattern badges for some Infantry Badges I have seen nothing for all GM Cavalry badges in the Register of Changes – but apparently evidence may be available elsewhere such as contract documentation. Perhaps the same is true for un-pierced badges.

Julian I would love to see what you may have to say on the matter.

John

I would add that I have the highest respect for David Smith and buy from him from time to time. I have found him to be an honourable dealer.

[talavera48]

Many thanks for all your kind words.

I don't think Andy needs me to stick up for him but I have no doubt he does a great deal to help collectors avoid duffs.

I thought we were having an amicable enough discussion on a badge, where we may have ended up agreeing to disagree, I was just rather surprised at how quickly I was criticized on a public forum.

Like I said, perhaps I've got it wrong. My experience of this hobby (going back 30-plus years, including as a child at my father's knee) is that all kinds of quirks exist, the "rules" often have exceptions and things you thought you knew just ain't so.

I'm perfectly happy to remove the badge but will probably try to load the photos into this thread first so anyone following the link is not totally lost - they are stored away so I'll have to try to dig them back out... it may not happen immediately, please bear with me.

[2747andy]

David,
May I please start this reply by offering my condolences on the loss of your brother! It was not my intention to "bad mouth" anyone and I personally don't feel I have. I do not have any evidence to place on the table, other than the Beds badge in question is one I have seen many examples of all of which are in my opinion reproduction and certainly not 1916 all Gm issued badges.

May I also add that I have no doubts over the integrity of David as an individual or as a dealer, neither is there any intention on my part to initiate a "witch hunt"!

My only intention from the start was to indicate that the badge in question is more than likely a reproduction, a view I stick by 100%! Whilst others may want to make a mountain out of a mole hill here, that is not what I started out to do, I may be wrong here but what is the difference between pointing out a dubious badge listed on eBay to doing the same to one on the lists of a well respected dealer? It is not the individual being put under the spotlight just the item listed for sale regardless to whether it is £15 or £150!

I wish to make a full an open apology to David for any offence which may have been caused but it is the badge I have issues with and not the person selling it! If others cannot understand this sentiment then again I am sorry, but I am not one to sit on the fence, sellers and dealers do make mistakes and I am always grateful to those who point out when I list something incorrectly!

Best regards

Andy

[Charlie585]

I was hoping that I might not have to post again in this thread but in answer to the points you make Andy and in as polite a way as I can possibly express them:


[I][QUOTE=2747 andyMay I also add that I have no doubts over the integrity of David as an individual or as a dealer, neither is there any intention on my part to initiate a "witch hunt"![/I]


In that case let’s hope that you are able to refrain from making the same mistake again and can see now that your original post on this matter was rather uncalled for.


[I][QUOTE=2747andy My only intention from the start was to indicate that the badge in question is more than likely a reproduction, a view I stick by 100%![/I]

Fair enough but I seem to recall that you went on to highlight other badges that you have doubts about, twisting the knife maybe?

[I][QUOTE=2747andy Whilst others may want to make a mountain out of a mole hill here, that is not what I started out to do,[/I]

So it’s ok for you to sound off but any reply that doesn’t agree with your point of view is unwelcome, I see!

[I][QUOTE=2747andy I may be wrong here but what is the difference between pointing out a dubious badge listed on eBay to doing the same to one on the lists of a well respected dealer? It is not the individual being put under the spotlight just the item listed for sale regardless to whether it is £15 or £150[/I]!

The minute you identify the seller, trade or otherwise it becomes a matter of integrity, granted than many EBay sellers may not give a hoot but others might / do! I sure that you would feel somewhat miffed if another dealer took it upon himself to start publicly criticising you wares


[I][QUOTE=2747andy If others cannot understand this sentiment then again I am sorry,[/I]


Your sentiment is understandable and as I said previously, from a hobbyist point of view or expressed in private it might be justified, now that you are a fully fledged dealer that publicises his business at every opportunity I for one feel that such traffic from you is no longer apt

[I][QUOTE=2747andy but I am not one to sit on the fence, sellers and dealers do make mistakes and I am always grateful to those who point out when I list something incorrectly![/I]

Maybe now you are in the ranks of the trade you might like to consider sitting on that fence a a good thing as it might be better for business, though that said all publicity is good and if you are referring to this listing:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3906355487...84.m1438.l2648

You are most welcome.


Andy, you have given a lot to this hobby and I like many have often learned from your participation. I hope you don’t take any of the above as a personal attack but I felt compelled to respond to your points and on reflection I hope that you are able to accept that there are always two sides to an argument and both sides have the right to reply.

Best regards

Ry

(MODS, there seems to be a problem with the italics in this post, can anything be done please?)

[fougasse1940]

Lets not forget that there are also badges out there which (sometimes partially) weren't voided when they should have been as a production slip-up, yet somehow managed to pass quality control and end up in circulation.

Rgds, Thomas.

[fougasse1940]

This recent thread might be a case in point:
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=33789

Rgds, Thomas.

[talavera48]

Andy,

Thank you for your apology and condolences.

Just to clarify, I have no problem with people discussing my badges. While I may make the odd mistake I'm confident people will be happy with 99%-plus of them. I hope, though, people will discuss them in the context of what they know and what they believe.

My real issue is the way in which this episode was discussed. I started this thread to make it very clear to people the reason i had not removed the item was because I found the argument unconvincing. I felt the other thread implied I knew the item to be a reproduction but carried on trying to sell it anyway - THAT does create a question of my integrity.

Perhaps had there been a guide on this forum discussing this particular badge you could have pointed me towards it. I would have read about the museum copy angle, which would have created enough doubt in my mind, I would have thanked you and removed the item. So, maybe such guides are a good idea?

I have removed the item from my site now.

More broadly, alongside people jumping to conclusions based on cynicism, another of my pet hates about this hobby (and it is a hobby for me even if I'm on the dealing side more than the straight collecting side) is the fatalism of some collectors. Some seem to feel there is nothing that can be done to fight fakers but I feel there is plenty and actually this forum goes a long way to do much of it.

At the risk of dragging up old arguments, I think one option could be that forum members can give a public vote of support for a dealer, possibly as part of their profile (i.e. a list of that individual's supported dealers). Each member would have the right to add or remove dealers whenever they like for whatever reason they like without any requirement for a public explanation (discussions may well take place off the public forum).

These "votes" might then be aggregated in some way by the moderators to create a default list of preferred dealers (a "top of the pops", if you like). In this way, I believe the forum is at no risk - it is purely a positive vote, lack of votes does not automatically imply any dealer is corrupt and nobody can threaten to sue because people won't vote for them.

I'd like to believe I'd at least make the top ten.

Anyway, I'm happy to put this thread to bed now.

[2747andy]

David,
Thank you for your understanding in this matter and I reiterate, despite the attempt to pour petrol on an ember by certain posts, my intention was to point out that the badge was not what it appeared and not the seller!

I also agree that there is too much doom and gloom about fakes, my knowledge and with it the ability to spot reproductions has grown tenfold since becoming a member of this Forum, people just need to pay attention to the finer details, something often overlooked by the fakers!

As for the dealers "Top Ten", I think the best endorsement for any seller or dealer in this hobby is recommendation and word of mouth! Also that individuals reaction to the resolution of hiccups, this thread may have sprung from what appeared to be a slur on your integrity but has demonstrated why people buy your badges!

Thank you for your mature response!

Andy