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#16
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Interesting theory, but no Border Regiment Battalion was in the middle East in 1942.
Rgds, Thomas. |
#17
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Quote:
Yes it's a difficult one but as already pointed out there were a distinct lack of Rifle brigade Battalions in the Far East at that time. Possible badges were ordered/made in error for one or the other Regiments, possibly 1942 does not refer to a year? But to something else, I don't have the answer I'm afraid but certainly food for thought Kind Regards, M |
#18
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Badges by Indian makers “K.C.R.” & “G.K.& S.A.”
Hi Marcus
I was most interested to see one of your cast West Yorkshire badges with “K.C.R.44” on it, as I picked up a Leicesters’ badge with the exact same mark a few years ago; and which I posted up to the Forum here. Any thoughts on who this maker might be? I suspected the ‘44’ stood for 1944, but if such numbers aren’t the years of manufacture then I can’t think what else they could be?? Anyway, the same thread that has my Leicesters badge on it also has a Northamptons one with a “G.K.& S.A.” mark, which at the time I thought might stand for ‘G. Karanjee & Sons of Aligarh’, based on one of Julian’s postings; something Thomas looks to have now confirmed. I wonder if the “G.K.& S.A.” mark was actually earlier than the fuller “G.Karanjee&Sons Aligarh.U.P.” one? All very interesting, so thank you for sharing these. Best regards Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers! Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I. “Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete” |
#19
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Martin, I have no answers to the very relevant points you raise. Unlike your sterling research into several British makers, there is hardly any info available on Indian makers and maker marks.
Rgds, Thomas. |
#20
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A whole battalion not, but perhaps some men of the 5th battalion as part of the 110th Regiment RAC?
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#21
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I suppose by the same logic your Rifle Brigade badge could have been ordered in India by a transferred rifleman???
Most Middle Eastern badges tend to be even cruder than Indian badges, also never seen a maker marked sandcast one. Perhaps these were made post War for the collectors market? Rgds, Thomas. |
#22
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Possible Badge Makers in Aligarh U.P.
Hello Thomas
Sorry I haven’t replied before to your posting about how little there is on Indian badge makers, but we were without electric here for a couple of evenings and I’m only now catching up with things. Anyway, yes I am aware that there is very little information to be had on this, though there’s quite a few examples of their wares on the Forum by now, and Mike did manage to get some details of Chatur Bihari & Bros of Aligarh from a family member which is now on the Markers’ Mark section here I did try and look at this whole question of Indian makers myself the other year, but admit didn’t get very far! Though I did find an interesting list in Kelly’s Directory of Merchants, Manufacturers and Shippers of the World for 1940, Vol. II of which does cover ‘British India’. Under the section for ‘Aligarh (United Provinces of Agra and Oudh), a town in the Agra division, between the Ganges and the Jumna’, was the following list of lock manufacturers: As you’ll see this includes Chatur Bihari & Bros, and there is also a “Sharma B. L. & Co”, which I would think must be the same as the mark “T.L.Sharma&Co” (I’m assuming the “B. L.” in the list is a mistake, though I did look at directories for a few years and they all had “B. L.” rather than ‘T. L.’). Interestingly too is the fact that there is no mention of ‘G. Karanjee & Sons’ in this list, or in any of the other categories under Aligarh, but, of course, there’s nothing to say this is comprehensive in any way, shape or form. Best regards Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers! Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I. “Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete” Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 21-02-14 at 11:56 PM. |
#23
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Hello Martin,
That is a very interesting link thanks for posting it, I doubt if I would have seen it otherwise, Bihari made so many superb badges, including, interestingly, the finest made 25th Dragoons that I am aware of, certainly better than the British Gaunt and Firmin made examples. Regards Frank Last edited by Frank Kelley; 16-02-14 at 08:27 PM. |
#24
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Another stellar find, Martin. Thanks for sharing. I have a RASC badge marked INDUSTRIAL FY. ALIGARH. I was under the impression FY stood for foundry, but your article proves otherwise.
I don't think all lock manufacturers were also producing badges, and not all badge mamufacturers might have been lock makers as well. Rgds, Thomas. |
#25
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Chatur Bihari & Bros and their badges
Hi Frank
Glad you found the link to the makers’ mark page for Chatur Bihari & Bros of interest. I don’t know how Mike managed to get in touch with the grandson of Mr Chatur Bihari Sharma, but it certainly makes interesting reading; in case you haven’t seen it Mike’s original posting about things is here. At least the entry from the 1940 Kelly’s Directory of Merchants, Manufacturers and Shippers of the World tells us they were based in the Pala Shibabad area of Aligarh, which adds a little more to what we know about this particular firm. As to the company’s badges, I have one of their cast badges for the Leicesters, which is definitely well made, and which I posted up to the Forum here. Best regards Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers! Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I. “Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete” Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 21-02-14 at 11:53 PM. |
#26
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Kelly’s 1940 Directory of Merchants, Manufacturers and Shippers of the World
Hello Thomas
I was pleased to hear you thought the entries from Kelly’s Directory of Merchants, Manufacturers and Shippers of the World of 1940 were of interest, and that the one for ‘Industrial Factory & Lock Works’ was of particular use to you. I’d certainly agree that there is nothing to suggest that all the lock makers listed also made cap badges, or that those that made badges in Aligarh were only lock makers; I did mention there is nothing to say the list I put up was comprehensive in any way, shape or form, and I wasn’t suggesting otherwise. It is merely a useful list of firms in Aligarh, some of which do seem to have made cap badges around the time of the Second World War. However I should point out that of all the other categories in the Directory under Aligarh, the only ones that could be classed as metal workers were those given as being ‘Lock Manufrs’. For information the other listings were for ‘Agents–Manufrs’, ‘Banks & Bankers’, ‘Boot & Shoe Mers’, ‘Brick Manufrs’, ‘Chemists & Druggists’, ‘Cloth Mers’, ‘Diary Produce Mers & Exporters’, ‘Electric Supplies Mers’, ‘Electrical Engineers & Importers’, ‘Engineers–Mechanical’, ‘Gramophone Dealers’, ‘Importers & Exporters’, ‘Merchants–General’, ‘Mineral Water Manufrs’, ‘Oil Manufrs’, ‘Oli (Castor) Manufrs’, ‘Sationery Mers & Importers’ and ‘Watch Manufrs’. Anyway, since making my last posting about this I’ve made a renewed effort in this respect, and have found another good source for companies in Aligarh, which I’ll post up shortly. Best regards Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers! Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I. “Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete” Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 21-02-14 at 11:52 PM. |
#27
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Thacker’s Indian Directory, Including Burma, 1940-41
After making my posting with the list of ‘Lock Manufrs’ from Kelly’s Directory of Merchants, Manufacturers and Shippers of the World of 1940, which I had actually found a couple of years ago, I’ve been making a renewed effort to try and find information on Indian badge makers from the Second World War. This has now lead me to some on-line issues of Thacker’s Indian Directory on the ‘Digital Library of India’ website, which look to be quite useful in this respect.
The lists of companies given as being in Aligarh, which are just shown in a single ‘Commercial’ section arranged alphabetically rather than according to their trade as in Kelly’s, are too long to put up here in their entireties. However Thacker’s Indian Directory, Including Burma, 1940-41, Embracing The Indian Empire, and Burma has the following entries under Aligarh for the ‘Industrial Factory & Lock Works’, showing a wide range of products made by this firm, T. L. Sharma & Co., confirming that the entry in Kelly’s is indeed incorrect when it has them as ‘B. L.’, and ‘Eden & Co.’, badges apparently being made by this company’s having been put up by Marcus in posts #10: I have also had a look at the 1937-38 edition of Thacker’s, and will post up some of the entries from that separately later today if I can. Regards Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers! Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I. “Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete” Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 24-02-14 at 07:52 PM. |
#28
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Hello Martin,
Yes, it is all fascinating stuff, I have not seen that many badges made by them, but, those I have seen are all very good indeed, in some cases, far better than their counterparts made here. I am still a new member here and still finding my way around, but, I will look at the link to Mike's post. Kind regards again Frank Quote:
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#29
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Thacker’s Indian Directory, Including Burma & Ceylon, 1937-8
Apologies for not getting ’round to posting up the following entries from Thacker’s Indian Directory, Including Burma & Ceylon, 1937-8, Embracing The Indian Empire, Burma & Ceylon last night as I’d hoped. Anyway, here are a couple of relevant entries from this for Aligarh, namely that for the ‘Industrial Factory & Lock Works’, and one for T. L. Sharma & Co. Interstingly at this earlier date there wasn’t an entry for the ‘Eden & Co.’ shown in the 1940-41 directory, but there is one for G. Karanjee & Sons:
One final observation for now, and that is that whilst Chatur Bihari & Bros did appear amongst the list I put up from Kelly’s Directory of Merchants, Manufacturers and Shippers of the World for 1940, they’re not obviously in Thacker’s Indian Directory for 1937-38 or the one for 1940-41. Anyhow, if I can I’ll have a look at all the different companies in the Thacker’s lists to see if there are any possibles for those badge makers where we only have their initials on the marks, as in some of Marcus’s examples, and if I think there are any promising candidates I’ll be sure to put them up here too. Regards Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers! Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I. “Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete” |
#30
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Another Border Regiment cast badge, an "EDEN 43" with fabric insert now faded from red to pink - orange.
I'm no sure if it bears traces of a silver coloured finish on the back. |
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cast badge, indian makers |
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