RND Divisional engineers

[RMR]

Hi all,I bought yesterday a trio and paperwork to Sapper A.C. Salter what badge would he have worn RND or RM.Thanks Roger

[Ray6930]

Roger
I think he would have been a Royal Marine Engineer rather than RND. As such he would have had RME brass shoulder title and his cap badge would I believe have been a brass globe and laurel with (as in a RM collar badge).

As far as I am aware Marines in RND (basically RMLI) retained their own badges.
Ray

[engr9266]

Originally Posted by RMR

Hi all,I bought yesterday a trio and paperwork to Sapper A.C. Salter what badge would he have worn RND or RM.Thanks Roger

I would say that if his rank was SAPPER he would have been Royal Engineers, so it would be an RE badge,
Just because it was the RND, it does'nt mean the engineers were RM/RMLI/ETC.
I could be wrong but only RE's use Sapper.

[Danny]

Hi,
Attached are some photos that I took in a museum in Dover some years ago.

I do not know if the insignia was worn in this way throughout the war or how it fits in with the RME though.

Regards

Danny

r1.jpg r2.jpg
r3.jpg r4.jpg
r5.jpg

[REMEVMBEA1]

I would assume that he would wear the RE cap badge with the RND shoulder titles simply to indicate who he was attached to as REME did in my time (and probably still do) , we wore the REME cap badge and cloth shoulder titles and in many units , especially cavalry, wore brass shoulder titles of the unit we were attached to. I wore REME with RHG at one time.

[Graham Stewart]

The original 1st, 2rd & 3rd Field Coy's of the RND, were manned soley by the R.M.E., but from 1st February 1917 these Companies were transferred to the Royal Engineers and redesignated 247th Fld Coy; 248th Fld Coy & 249th Fld Coy.

The photo link showing the uniforms with RE/RND titles is post-Feb 1917, but if you look closely at the photo of the original owner it shows him still wearing the RM collar badge as the RME capbadge as described earlier.

Therefore the term 'Sapper' was applied to those lads who were RME's and transferred to the RE in 1917.

Forgot to mention he was eventually Discharged from the London Electrical Engineers(T.F.) - bet that has you confused now!!

[Ray6930]

The reason I was led to thinking he would have been RME was because of the inscription on the medal - a Deal number and R.M. clearly seen
Ray

[RMR]

Thanks for all the opinions, on his demob certificate 2ND photo it says he enlisted RN Division engineers ,Deal was 12th Royal Marine brigade, after 1917 he wore an RE capbadge as I have a photo, it's the period pre 1917 I wondered about when he was in the Dardanelles.The photo Danny provided appears to be an RM cap badge.Roger

[Graham Stewart]

Roger & Ray you are both correct in the fact that he was indeed R.M.E. prior to 1917. After 1st, 2nd & 3rd Fld Coy's, RME and personnel were transferred to the RE, all became Sappers and were renumbered in the RE numbering sequence, unless a specific block of numbers were set aside for them.

His transfer to the London Electrical Engineers, is also very interesting considering it's a T.F. unit, which had it's own numbering sequence, within RE numbering system, as did all RE(T.F.) units. In the case of the L.E.E., they were given the post-1917 numbering block '562001-56800', prior to that it had been four figure numbers only.

This proves that his transfer was post-1917 and not pre-1917, otherwise he would have been given another RE(T.F.) number on top of the two he had already been given(Deal 1092-S & 208061). All very geekish, I know, but regimental numbering has become a very important research tool in the last few years.

If I also remember correctly the war role of the L.E.E., was to supply men for the AASL(Anti-Aircraft Search Light) role both at home and overseas.

[RMR]

Thanks Graham I wondered what the London outfit was much appreciate the information.He had an eventful life he got hit by a lump of shrapnel in ww1 and his house was bomb damaged in ww2.Roger

[royston]

Hi

There are badges in existance with the wording ENGINEERS as a bar across the top of RND (all one unit) I have a friend who has one with Gaunt on the back. There is an illustration in the DNW catalogue 02 April 2004, I will try and get a scan.

John

[paj1]

Hi Guys
if you have a look at my RND album you will see a shoulder title i picked
up. which is curved RND s-t with letter E above for Engineers
regards Julian

[RMR]

I know this isn't insignia related but I thought it may interest RND collectors.It's full of humerous writings and drawings I bet they needed cheering up after nearly 4 years of war. The Mudhook magazine of the 63rd RND.I would very much like to see a photo of one of those badges Royston. Roger

[royston]

Hi

As promised: Copy of DNW Auction April 2004, showing RND Engineers shoulder title. (See next item below. I pressed the go button too soon.

John

[royston]

Hi

Pressed the button too soon. Copy of DNW Catalogue attached.

John