17th Lancers

[Sonofacqms]

Forgetting all preconceived ideas and legends, has anyone any irrefutable proof that the 17th Lancers had a gilding metal cap badge produced.

This is a badge that I have been asked about and to my limited knowledge I cannot see why there was any necessity for this badge to be produced in this metal.
Opinions, ideas and thoughts welcome.

Rob

[GriffMJ]

Rob

According to the old collectors there was one...... but a very rare beast apparently (Lawrence Archer claims to have seen it/them)..... maybe just legend. If your interest has been sparked by the new arrival on eBay 310889338528 ..... forget it..... its a Ym. repro of the Firmin.

[2747andy]

Rob,
I've yet to come across one I'd be 100% happy with!

Andy

[Sonofacqms]

Griff/Andy, I have read Laurie Archer's notes saying that this badge is indeed a scarce item, so scarce that I can see no rhyme or reason for it to be produced unless as a trial piece.

I have seen them at militaria fairs and they are as convincing as all white metal King Edwards Horse.

Could possibly they have been produced as die-struck OSD's and had the bronzing polished off?

Rob

[GriffMJ]

To my knowledge there are only two coloured Mottoes officially produced for the "17th/21st Lancers"...... a Bronze (called Gun-metal) and a Blackened...... both made in the 1980s (for NI use). One made by Gaunt..... not in AA..... in white metal and chemically coloured. The other is an LB&BCo Bronze.

I have seen one Bronze FIRMIN (marked FIRMIN & SONS, 1980s if it follows the AA mark) that could be genuine ..... but was it used, probably not.

You will see and find Yellow metal Mottoes..... LB&BCo made one (post 1980), Gaunt made one (post 1960)...... there is a repro/fake Firmin...... there is no hard evidence, other than hearsay, that confirms the use of a brass "Cap" Motto by the 17th Lancers or their descendants.

[Alan O]

The QRL ORs in Afghanistan last year wore a mixture of silver and bronzed brass mottos on their berets. The brown bronzing inevitably wore/polished off. Theses were full sized mottos. Some QRL officers have worn reduced sized bronzed badges in berets for some years.

Alan

[GriffMJ]

Alan

I have only eluded to the earlier Motto...... the QRL have had a small bronzed brass Motto.... I am not aware of a standard size having the same treatment?

QRL Small Bronze...

New "Bronzed" beret motto (long looped E/W)
QRL Officers
Maker : TKS

H= 31mm x W= 40mm
"O" Loops E/W = 30mm
Loop length = 12mm

* A very nice motto and well made.... a good weight to it.

I have found "one" photo of a QRL wearing a large Bronzed brass Motto...... but that could have been a private purchase from eBay? It looks more like the duffer FIRMIN marked "FIRMIN ONDON". (see attached)..... if thats an official production ...... then I am sure that one or two of us would have had an example "in a packet" with MOD number by now? Anyway.... I am certainly not paying the £70ish that they go for on eBay (sold as 17th Lancer WW1 economy) lol.... what a load of tosh ;o)

[Alan O]

It's private purchase from the regtl sources and not ebay! They were full size and worn by about 50-60% of the QRL ORs.

The reduced size one was worn by offrs and not by ORs.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Alan O

It's private purchase from the regtl sources and not ebay! They were full size and worn by about 50-60% of the QRL ORs.

The reduced size one was worn by offrs and not by ORs.

Alan

Have you got an example? Or a photo of one in use? ...... it might explain the "FIRMIN ONDON" bronzed brass above?..... even if it does, would you pay £70ish for one?

LB&BCo have a bronzed version of their Motto BTW (Its difficult to tell what colour it is in the photo?) .... see attached (unused by the look and sold for £17 about four years ago on eBay..... haven't seen another since)

[Robthereiver]

Originally Posted by Sonofacqms

Griff/Andy, I have read Laurie Archer's notes saying that this badge is indeed a scarce item, so scarce that I can see no rhyme or reason for it to be produced unless as a trial piece.

I have seen them at militaria fairs and they are as convincing as all white metal King Edwards Horse.

Could possibly they have been produced as die-struck OSD's and had the bronzing polished off?

Rob

Rob

I agree with Andy, I have yet to see one that I'd be happy to put in my collection. They are spurious IMO.

I think these gm. Motto's pertaining to be 'economy' are discounted by most discerning collectors now, certainly in the collections I've been privileged to see.
I must admit I am continually surprised and disappointed at the brazen nature of some dealers, who continue to peddle this rubbish at fairs.

Regarding well polished/de-bronzed OSD Motto's, was this not mentioned by Archer, as being a possible reason/theory for the legendary existence of gm. Motto's?
Anyway its a theory, and I think there could be some truth in it, but I'd suggest those 17L OSD motto's are very scarce in any condition, so proving this could be difficult to say the least.

Cheers
Rob

[GriffMJ]

Below is a common repro of the Firmin motto.... in brass..... bronzed brass...... often flogged as 17th Lancer WW1 economy..... its a duffer...... you will find it with various sliders & loops. Also LA's comment on them. IF ONLY Mr LA put a picture of that rare an elusive beast next to his notes...... or referenced it in the MHS? Pretty sure its a myth.. BUT if its real.... my money would be on a "Smith & Wright Ltd" bronzed brass Motto (similar to the dubious modern "FIRMIN ONDON" ORs cap motto shown in post #7)

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Alan

Have you got an example? Or a photo of one in use? ...... it might explain the "FIRMIN ONDON" bronzed brass above?..... even if it does, would you pay £70ish for one?

LB&BCo have a bronzed version of their Motto BTW (or is it a spray can job on an AA?).... see attached (unused by the look and sold for £17 about four years ago on eBay..... haven't seen another since)

You yourself show a photo of it in use! I might pay £7 for one but £70 is just silly.

The officers bronze small beret badge is shown here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/m...-service-order

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Alan O

You yourself show a photo of it in use! I might pay £7 for one but £70 is just silly.

Indeed, but two separate photos of the same badge in use, with different QRL soldiers in theatre, would encourage the belief

£70 for something that is speculative at best is lunacy I have a nice bridge to sell you.......

* I knew the small one was the Officers..... typo. I had that photo as well

[Alan O]

There is no need to have a belief - the badge was worn in 2013 on HERRICK is a fact.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Alan O

There is no need to have a belief - the badge was worn in 2013 on HERRICK is a fact.

Alan

I dont doubt you...... I just want confirmation of the maker of the Motto.... so I can hunt it down At the moment that "FIRMIN ONDON" looks like the candidate ..... and would explain its existence .....but?