York & Lancs-chromed/plated?

[badger123]

Being the considerate husband that I am, I took my beloved wife to a local antique warehouse today so she could look for a lampshade to fit her antique lamp stand. I had no intention of buying anything myself (being on a strict budget at the moment) but I saw a ridiculously cheap but unusual badge that I couldn’t pass on.

Anyone seen a chromed or plated York and Lancs badge before? I'm not even sure its chromed but it has been plated with something (DaveC2-any thoughts)?

I know there is some debate about walking out/bandsman/RAC badges but I would appreciate any thoughts on this one. I have looked at old threads but don't see any mention of chromed Y&L badges.

There is a link to the RAC and Y&L (10th Battalion were RAC during WW2 I believe) but judging by the sweat holes the badge is a WW1 pattern.

Ivan

PS Apologies for the poor quality of pictures.

[oc14]

Ivan
it was nice of Jane to treat you to that badge with the money she saved by not buying any shoes today
Paul

[badger123]

Originally Posted by oc14

Ivan
it was nice of Jane to treat you to that badge with the money she saved by not buying any shoes today
Paul

Well she could have bought a lampshade but at £10 she thought it too expensive! Don’t worry mate, tomorrow she wants me to go to Meadowhall with her so she can buy her shoes.

Oh the things I have to go through to get my badges.

Ivan

[badger123]

Putting the comments about my wife's shopping habits aside, any comments on the badge?

Ivan

Hi Ivan,

Nice badge you have there, here are scans of the front and back of one of mine, differnt maker to yours, not to say that bthey were not chromed st the same time. You can see where the chrome plating is flaking on the rear of the slider of this one.

I concure with you on the 2 most likely reasons for the badges having been chromed:

The Band, or 10TH Bn (when 150TH Regt RAC).

Cheers Marcus

[badger123]

Marcus thanks for putting up the pictures. I think both badges are from the same maker and are WW1 era.

What you can't see from my poor picture of the rear is that it has the same 4 small braze holes around a larger hole (classic signs of a pre or WW1 Y&L badge) and the oblong braze hole above the slider is filled with chrome.

Given that both badges appear to be WW1, my gut feeling is that its unlikely to have been chromed for the 10th Battalion in WW2 as surely they would have used later pattern badges to chrome?

As its just a theory, anyone got any evidence they were used by bandsmen or RAC? Or does anyone have other examples of Y&L chromed badges to compare please?

Thanks, Ivan

[Mike Jackson]

According to the Y&L regimental history 150 Regt RAC managed to get a WO ruling that "converted units which did not exist prior to the outbreak of war in 1939 must drop its infantry title entirely and cease to wear the cap badge of its former regiment" overturned. This order came as a severe blow to 10 Y&L but the ruling was challenged and the unit's view prevailed. By early 1945 under the title of 150 Regt RAC (York and Lancaster) they fought in 254 Indian Tk Bde wearing the "tiger and rose" badge in their berets. lt is probable that the WM badges were locally procured.

Originally Posted by HAMMO2440

Hi Ivan,

Nice badge you have there, here are scans of the front and back of one of mine, differnt maker to yours, not to say that bthey were not chromed st the same time. You can see where the chrome plating is flaking on the rear of the slider of this one.

I concure with you on the 2 most likely reasons for the badges having been chromed:

The Band, or 10TH Bn (when 150TH Regt RAC).

Cheers Marcus

Hi Marcus the band did not ware a chromed badge all the photos show the bm cap badge but the 10th Bn did.

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

According to the Y&L regimental history 150 Regt RAC managed to get a WO ruling that "converted units which did not exist prior to the outbreak of war in 1939 must drop its infantry title entirely and cease to wear the cap badge of its former regiment" overturned. This order came as a severe blow to 10 Y&L but the ruling was challenged and the unit's view prevailed. By early 1945 under the title of 150 Regt RAC (York and Lancaster) they fought in 254 Indian Tk Bde wearing the "tiger and rose" badge in their berets. lt is probable that the WM badges were locally procured.

Mike the 10th Bn add there badge chromed locally, i have not seen cast chromed badge yet?

[badger123]

Originally Posted by peter616

Hi Marcus the band did not ware a chromed badge all the photos show the bm cap badge but the 10th Bn did.

Peter, are these colour photos or is it clear in black and white that the badges are BM? Please post a picture or two.

If these were for the 10th Battalion during the second world war, why are they WW1 era badges and not WW2 production badges?

Ivan

Hi Mike,

Point taken about late war usage (officially) of the Cat and Cabbage (Tiger and Rose) badge.

I have never seen a white metal Indian made badge and would like to see one, (I have a number of Indian made Brass Y&L badges varying from examples as well made as any British badge to those I keep for little more than the novelty value).

Did 150 RAC actually wear white badges? or were they locally (Indian) produced brass ones like those worn by members of 2,8 & 9 Y&L?

Cheers Marcus

[Mike Jackson]

I have no evidence that 150 Regt RAC (Y&L) wore their regimental badge in WM - but most infantry conversions to RAC tried to do so - apparently WM badges look so much better on a black beret. Being in India they would have been well placed to have them locally made.

Originally Posted by badger123

Peter, are these colour photos or is it clear in black and white that the badges are BM? Please post a picture or two.

If these were for the 10th Battalion during the second world war, why are they WW1 era badges and not WW2 production badges?

Ivan

Hi Ivan,

Irrespective of if the badge was made around the time of WW1 they were worn right up to endex for the Y&L, these badges were made in their thousands and it was a robust badge with no tail or such like to snap off, so I don't think the QM's would be putting in repeat orders every 6 months.

What I'm saying is it was not necessarily a newly made badge that got the chrome treatment, but more likely a badge already in service (or from stock in the QM's clothing store), both yours and mine are different to each other but have both being chromed.

I may be wrong, and if so hopefully someone will be able to put me on the right track.

Chees,

Marcus

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

I have no evidence that 150 Regt RAC (Y&L) wore their regimental badge in WM - but most infantry conversions to RAC tried to do so - apparently WM badges look so much better on a black beret. Being in India they would have been well placed to have them locally made.

Mike ,
Acknowledged about the white on black aspect, as you know (I think I have mentioned it) I have a couple of white West Yorks ones that I'm 99.9% sure came from 113 RAC which I got from a wartime collection whilst I was posted at Lydd (where 113 spent some time), but without diversifying further my only point was that I had not seen a cast white Y&L badge - I'm not saying they don't exist and if they do I would love one to add to my Y&L collection.

Chromed would look smart against a black beret, but probably having a nice shinny reflective beret badge on operations (all the other RAC attributed white infantry badges I have seen have been dipped and are quite dull and not shinny chrome) would not have been the most sensible thing to do, or is that just an ex Infantryman thinking about basic field craft, so I think some kind of ceremonial/parade badge, be if for 150 RAC or for an other element of the Y&L I honestly do not know.

Cheers Marcus

[badger123]

Marcus,

This is an interesting debate. I should point out that both of our badges appear to be the same with the same type of braze holes (you just can't see them in my poor pictures).

I appreciate that badges can be used in service for a long time and it may well have been old badges that were chromed for use during WW2 by the 10th Btn but at that stage in the war, wouldn't there have been plenty of WW2 produced BM badges around?

I am sure that they were not locally produced badges e.g. Indian and my own feeling is that they were bandsman badges rather than RAC but thats just a gut feeling and I've nothing else to base it on!

We are really just shooting in the dark unless we have some reliable reference material. If Peter or anyone else has pictures of bandsmen or RAC that may help.

Anyone?

Ivan