Military Foot Police

[Marcus H]

Hi,

How does this badge look to you guys ?

I've had it donkies years and prior to that it was in my fathers collection, but the odd fake has been found amidst those badges.

There is a flaw in a couple of places in the scroll: to left of the F in foot which is a small vertical line and the letter C has some excess around it.

Doing a search I found a couple on e bay which differ in the lion and crown detail slightly and most notable the tail.

The flaws though do seem to reside on those found on e bay ?

I'm told it's not in K&K ?

What are your thoughts ?


Kr

Marcus

[Marcus H]

One of the e bay badges.

[tynesideirish]

Just because a badge has a flaw doesn't mean it was a 'fake'. Obviously it wasn't a large unit or corps so there arn't an unlimited amount of badges. It may be a genuine reject! However it is unlikely any self respecting MFP would have worn one that was flawed.
The one from Ebay well arrange these letters " Touch a Pole Barge Wouldn't With!"

[Marcus H]

Thanks for the reply.

What strikes me as odd though as an example using e bay found badges, crap or dubious - all examples thus far have the flaw traits in the scroll as mine does.

Thats three different badges so far all with the same scroll traits, but with differing lions in addition.

That leads to a multitude of thought and reasoning......I'd really like to see a 'genuine' example to compare to mine.

Almost too much of a coincidence all three have the traits if mine were a reject perhaps ? Back to the 'dodgy' box for the time being.

The red back ground pic is from e bay also compared to my example.

Kr

Marcus

[Toby Purcell]

You will find it difficullt to be unequivocal as to whether many badges are genuine, as the original dies used to make badges (there were several companies with a War Office Licence to manufacture) were sold some years ago and many were purchased by companies specialising in reproduction. In addition some unscrupulous operators amongst them have used almost foolproof techniques to artificially age the badges. A certain amount can be told from the quality of brass and nickel used, as well as the type of solder, but short of some kind of 'carbon dating' type process that works with metals, it is almost impossible to be certain.

[jeanpit-frenchy]

good morning gentlemen.

i have buy (on EBAY GB) a few weeks before the same badge of MILITARY FOOT POLICE that MARCUS .H speeak.

for 1.9 GBP a dont think that it's a genuine

it had the same scroll traits and the same ' little piece of metal near the head of the lion"
the slider was marked JR GAUNT LONDON.

[Praepositus]

As far as is known, this much copied die-cast badge was never taken into general use. In 1971/72, Lt Col N W Poulsom RMP, theorised in the RMP Corps Journal and Military Historical Society Bulletin that the badge was designed during the short reign of EVIIR to be worn in the Peaked Forage Cap introduced in 1904, the same year that the Broderick Cap was withdrawn from general wear. He adds that it may have been the intention to have a similar badge for the Military Mounted Police (MMP) (1877-1926) with the inscription on the scroll showing ‘MILITARY MOUNTED POLICE’, but this, as Lt Col Poulsom admitted, was all guesswork. That said, a recent MMP bi-metal example sold at Bosley's this year for £770. While Kipling and King list a similar MFP cap badge [KK 1029] it is a single gilding metal version, no mention is made by other recognised authorities, and there are no Corps records or contemporary photographs that have been found by this collector to suggest that the badge was ever taken into general use. However, it is fairly certain that the MFP badge shown in KK (q.v.,) was used by the Military Police detachment based at Shorncliffe until the introduction of the KVIIR cypher version round about 1904.

[ProCoy]

Just resurrecting this old thread to solicit opinions on this one.

Its a one piece striking in gilding metal with lugs, shown alongside one of the common fakes found on EBay in bi-metal with a slider.

K&K describes the badge as gilding metal but doesn't state whether lugs or slider were used.

Happy that, if a fake, its closer to the K&K example than the ubiquitus bi-metal fake I've had for years as a space-filler. Much better detail on the crown especially the lower band so not from the same tooling. Also lacks the flaw on the "C".

What do you reckon guys ?

[ProCoy]

Reverse.

(Sorry, I should have reduced these in size a bit before uploading)

[engr9266]

I would rather have the lugged one piece GM badge than the two piece bi-metal one

[Mike B]

Just wizzing through the forum postings so not read the thread thoroughly - I note Hugh King describes Military Foot Police KK1029 as Gilding Metal, not Bimetal. I agree Lt Col Poulsom was a great authority on these badges, and note he also describes the badge as manufactured in Brass (not Bimetal) - MHS Bulletin May 1972. So where does that leave the Bimetal Military Foot Police badges we see? Hope this helps (or does it confuse?) Mike.

[ProCoy]

I resized the images so they weren't quite so huge.

I only needed two badges to complete my collection of all the MP cap/collar badges, - the MFP where I had only the common bi-metal fake,and the EVIIIR which I have no expectation of ever finding, so I was quite keen when I saw this all brass version as it seemed to fit the description of the "real" badge.

I hadn't seen any reference to one with lugs before, but went for it anyway as it clearly isn't one of the modern copies and has genuine ageing.

Generally restrikes are made as copies of things that did exist , often using original tooling, which would suggest that a bi-metal one had existed but on the other hand, the Crown emblem was pretty common and it would not take a huge fanancial investment to creat a tool to stamp out the scroll to add to an existing Crown, so a "ground up fake" wouldn't be out of the question.

I've always assumed the bi-metal ones were fakes, but hard info on this badge is rather hard to find.

[Alan O]

In this case I too beleive that the bimetal one a fantasy badge. The all brass one in K&K created a market that has been met by someone using the same fake lion die that appears on Royal Dragoon badges.

[Praepositus]

Hi folks,

My research still leads me to believe that the Bi-Metal version is a fantasy badge, probably made/restruck from an original die of a prototype badge possibly tabled when the Home Service Helmet was withdrawn. When EVII became King, the Military Police adopted a generic Military Police KC cap badge and the MMP and MFP badges were not adopted. Subsequently, a GVI badge was authorised for wear after 1910 for both MMP and MFP. CMP was formed in 1926, with the MMP and MFP amalgemating. The Gilding Metal MFP badge with lugs is I believe genuine, but was not adopted officially or widely and indications are that it was designed by the Shorncliffe detachment of MFP and then only 'issued' in very, very small numbers so it is certainly one to cherish and I am green with envy!!!

[ProCoy]

Originally Posted by Praepositus

The Gilding Metal MFP badge with lugs is I believe genuine, but wss not adopted officially or widely and indications are that it was designed by the Shorncliffe detachment of MFP and 'issued' in very, very smal numbers so it is certainly one to cherish and I am green with envy!!!

I was hoping you would comment on this one . Certainly in hand it has all the appearance you'd expect of a genuinely old badge.

Reckon I did OK at £20 from EBay then !

Can't see me ever letting this one go, but if I do, you'll be first in line.