Grenadier Guards Cloth Titles WW1 or 2?

[lettman]

Originally Posted by peter616

hi can you post the photo as i have not got the book here with me

peter

Here it is, Peter -- the original plus a blow-up of his shoulder. Obviously it's none too clear, but enough to show the title.

[John Mulcahy]

I too find this a fascinating subject. I cannot add too much to the identification of what was worn during WW1 however the following pre-war data I un-earthed when last in the NA may be of interest here.


Irish Guards "Titles machine embroidered cotton white on cloth scarlet no 3 for jackets service dress all ranks." "first pattern" SPN 8561/1903, sealed 30/04/03 under authority ACD patterns 864 30/04/03. I seem to recall the other regiments also having first pattern titles sealed at this time although only the Irish Guards interested me. WO359 vol 11 p 225 for anyone interested in following up.

I hope during future visits to try to find when the switch to white on green was made. If anyone has this data already and is willing to share it I would be very grateful for the data.

John

[NEMO]

This pattern of cloth shoulder title was been worn already prior to W.W. ONE , I will dig out a photo , regards ,Michael.

[54Bty]

I hope this helps, it is all I have.

The words GRENADIER GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a Scarlet background with rounded ends. Catalogue No. CB 0945. ACI 118 of 1940, ACI 410 dated 30th May 1951 & 581 dated 13th September 1952.

The words GRENADIER GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a Red background with rounded ends. Catalogue No. CB 0945. ACI 139 published 1953.

The words GRENADIER GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a Red background with rounded ends. Issued in March 1993. NSN CB 8455-99-974-0626, pattern number 23536.

The words GRENADIER GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a Red background with rounded ends. Misaligned letters and poorly embroidered to above. NSN CB 8455-99-974-0626, pattern number 23536. Rejected by the Unit.

The words GRENADIER GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a Stone coloured background with a merrowed edge and rounded ends. To be worn at the top of both sleeves of the Number 6 Dress Jacket by members of the Grenadier Guards. Example only.


The words COLDSTREAM GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a Scarlet coloured background with rounded ends. Catalogue number CB 0946. ACI 118 of 1940.

The words COLDSTREAM GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a Scarlet coloured background with rounded ends. Catalogue number CB 0946, pattern number 17576, sealed 14th November 1957. Later NSN CB 8455-99-974-0627.

The words COLDSTREAM GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a Red coloured background with rounded ends. NSN CB 8455-99-974-0627, pattern number 23539.

The words COLDSTREAM GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a Red coloured felt background with rounded ends. NSN CB 8455-99-974-0627, pattern number 23539.

The words COLDSTREAM GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a Red coloured background with rounded ends.NSN CB 8455-99-974-0627, pattern number 23539. Misaligned letters and poorly embroidered to above Rejected by the Unit.

The words COLDSTREAM GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a Stone coloured background with a merrowed edge and rounded ends. To be worn at the top of both sleeves of the Number 6 Dress Jacket by members of the Coldstream Guards. Example only.


The words SCOTS GUARDS machine embroidered in Dark yellow thread into a Dark Blue coloured background with rounded ends. Catalogue number CB 0947, pattern number 12820. ACI 118 of 1940.

The words SCOTS GUARDS machine embroidered in yellow thread into a Light Blue coloured background with rounded ends. Catalogue number CB 2720, pattern number 16374, sealed 14th July 1954, introduced 18th January 1955, C6468 February 1955.

The words SCOTS GUARDS machine embroidered in Golden yellow thread into a Royal Blue coloured background with rounded ends. Catalogue number CB 7476, pattern number 16836, sealed 19th April 1955, introduced 14th September 1955, C6826 October 1955.

The words SCOTS GUARDS machine embroidered in Golden yellow thread into a Royal Blue coloured background with rounded ends. NSN CB 8455-99-974-0628, pattern number 16836.

The words SCOTS GUARDS machine embroidered in yellow thread into a Light Blue coloured background with rounded ends. NSN CB 8455-99-974-0628, pattern number 23538. Misaligned letters and poorly embroidered to above. Rejected by the Unit.

The words SCOTS GUARDS machine embroidered in Dark yellow thread into a Dark Blue coloured background with rounded ends. Also worn on the sleeves of the Combat Soldier 95 Jacket by the Recruiting Team. NSN CB 8455-99-974-0628, pattern number 23538.

The words SCOTS GUARDS machine embroidered in Yellow thread into a Stone coloured background with a merrowed edge and rounded ends. To be worn at the top of both sleeves of the Number 6 Dress Jacket by members of The Scots Guards. Example only.


The words IRISH GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into an Emerald Green coloured background with rounded ends. Catalogue number CB 0948.

The words IRISH GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a very dark Emerald Green coloured background with rounded ends. Catalogue number CB 0948.

The words IRISH GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into an Emerald Green coloured background with rounded ends. NSN CB 8455-99-974-0629, pattern number 23541.

The words IRISH GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into an Emerald Green coloured background with rounded ends. NSN CB 8455-99-974-0629, pattern number 23541. Reintroduced in 1993.

The words IRISH GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into an Emerald Green coloured felt background with rounded ends. NSN CB 8455-99-974-0629, pattern number 23541.

The words IRISH GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into an Emerald Green coloured background with rounded ends. NSN CB 8455-99-974-0629. Misaligned letters and poorly embroidered to above. Rejected by the Unit.

The words IRISH GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a Stone coloured background with a merrowed edge and rounded ends. To be worn at the top of both sleeves of the Number 6 Dress Jacket by members of The Irish Guards. Example only.


The words WELSH GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a Dark Blue background.
Catalogue number CB 0949.

The words WELSH GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a Dark Blue background.
Smaller letters. CB 0949.

The words WELSH GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a Dark Blue (No.3) background. NSN CB 8455-99-974-0630, pattern number 11444 sealed 30th September 1947.

The words WELSH GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a Dark Blue (No.3) background. NSN CB 8455-99-974-0630, pattern number 23537.

The words WELSH GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a Dark Blue (No.3) felt background. NSN CB 8455-99-974-0630, pattern number 23537.

The words WELSH GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a Dark Blue (No.3) background. NSN CB 8455-99-974-0630. Misaligned letters and poorly embroidered to above. Rejected by the Unit.

The words WELSH GUARDS machine embroidered in White thread into a Stone coloured background with a merrowed edge. To be worn at the top of both sleeves of the Number 6 Dress Jacket by members of The Welsh Guards. Example only.

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by NEMO

This pattern of cloth shoulder title was been worn already prior to W.W. ONE , I will dig out a photo , regards ,Michael.

The original AO for SD of infantry 1902 specified white on scarlet for ALL includingguards, of course

[grumpy]

54 Bty ...... wow, that is what I call a contribution .... takes up the complicated story a few decades later. Thank you.

[Bill A]

This is related to the post I made, asking about the 1902 pattern shoulder titles for the Coldstream Guards...
Is the title image in lettman's post the pattern that would have been worn from the Boer War period up until the FWW?

[grumpy]

the worsted white on scarlet was discontinued c. 1907 in favour of gilding metal in line with RACD policy which moved from expensive worsted to cheap! GM.

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by grumpy

the worsted white on scarlet was discontinued c. 1907 in favour of gilding metal in line with RACD policy which moved from expensive worsted to cheap! GM.

'Grumpy" is quite right, I have the following from WO359/14 page 2 ...
ACD /India/1654. 05/05/1905. It is approved to abolish the embroidered titles on the sleeves of great coats and service dress jackets - substituting them for metal as a cost saving measure, it is now proposed to extend this to tunics and full dress frocks abroad.

John

[Bill A]

Thanks for clarifying the time period. However, I am still trying to id the type of title worn circa the Boer War by Guards regiments. Not being conversant with British cloth insignia, I am trying to identify the pattern worn during the Boer War era.
Secondly, would the pattern worn circa 1914 be different from that pattern worn circa 1900?
The cloth titles for the Coldstream Guards were used as the inspiration and model for the titles created for the PPCLI in 1914.

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by Bill A

Thanks for clarifying the time period. However, I am still trying to id the type of title worn circa the Boer War by Guards regiments. Not being conversant with British cloth insignia, I am trying to identify the pattern worn during the Boer War era.
Secondly, would the pattern worn circa 1914 be different from that pattern worn circa 1900?
The cloth titles for the Coldstream Guards were used as the inspiration and model for the titles created for the PPCLI in 1914.

I think it very likely that CG went to war in 1914 with gilding metal letters CG and rose above. So, No, in a word.

Originally Posted by grumpy

I think it very likely that CG went to war in 1914 with gilding metal letters CG and rose above. So, No, in a word.

yes it looks that way and in 1916 thay got the cloth slip-on

peter

[john badge]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

Having finally got around to joining The Military Heraldry Society some months ago, I found that each of the first 3 issues of the bulletin I received solved a long-standing badge identification problem.

Thats good enough for me Leigh. Ive just downloaded the pdf.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by mark holden

Can anyone tell me if these GREN GDS titles are WW1 or POST WW1?

Many thanks Mark

These were first worn between 1902 and 1908. See attached photo. They were then readopted for battle dress at the beginning of WW2.

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

These were first worn between 1902 and 1908. See attached photo. They were then readopted for battle dress at the beginning of WW2.

But these are not GG .... they are CG.

Dating the photo is shall we say not easy.