Badge 'Validity'

Dear All,

I am aware of at least one previous thread which partially covers this matter (here) but for the purposes of clarification once and for all (yeah, right) I wonder if I might broach the subject once again.

One or two members have already been kind enough to offer their considered views below the linked pictures, but could I perhaps invite further comment on the (for want of a better word) ‘validity’ of the type of badge in the links below. I do not mean the specific pieces pictured, but the actual type of badge.

Opinions seem to be fairly polarised, though it is fair to say that many fall on the ‘nay’ side of the line.

From what I can gather, a number of forum members have puzzled over this long and hard, so can anyone please tell me… whether in bi-metal, gilt, gilding-metal or BZ, with lugs, tangs, sliders or blu-tack fixings...

...is it a ‘real’ badge?

LINK 1

LINK 2

With thanks,

Peter.

[grumpy]

On the assumption that they are neither official issue nor officially-sanctioned private purchase, the philosophy behind taking the trouble to produce such items has always been beyond me.
Having never attempted to do knock-up a badge, I still believe that the set-up costs, the skill involved, the souorcing of materials, the [sometimes] artificial ageing, the marketing ........ represents a great amount of effort for comparatively modest gains.
I could just about understand it if most repros or fakes "out there" were produced by a handful of full-time experts ....... they might just make a living. But if it is a cottage industry, they might be better off doing something useful.
I should add that I am 'fat dumb and happy', as the saying goes, because, with a very small number of exceptions, I stopped collecting in 1984, at which date it was certainly not worth anyone's while to reproduce the items that I was after.

Out of interest, K&K say:

‘White F.S Helmet and Forage-cap - in gilt or gilding-metal, the figure of Britannia; a tablet below inscribed The Norfolk Regt,'

No mention of BZ or bi-metal.

PJ

[KLR]

I'm never sure what to believe in K&K.
For what it's worth the official War Office sources record that a bimetal badge of Brit within wreath with title below was Sealed on 12th December 1897 for wear on both the Field Cap (ie "side cap") and the Foreign Service Helmet.
A new pattern appeared in 1937.
Most original badges on their Sealed Pattern cards still survive and the annotations on the cards themselves provide much useful information.

[orasot]

Hi Peter,
This one certainly looks real enough, pretty mint actually for a Bronze, still has signs of the flux residue around the blades, if you look between the bottom 2 blades you can make out a J&Co mark too, hope this is of interest to you, best wishes,
Wilf.

Thanks gents,

KLR - I'd love to see the sealed pattern card for this bagde, it'd settle one or two arguments.

Wilf - thanks for the image. Very nice example, and looks real enough to me too. Joachim also submitted a lovely example in post #6 HERE.

From what I can tell, there just seems to be a fair bit of wrangling about this particular badge; who wore it, which metals were officially used, is it a 'fantasy' item. Mind you, I suppose that's all part of the fun of collecting.

Just thought - K&K actually have a colour picture of this badge on the cover of Vol II.

Thanks blokes.

PJ

[Alan O]

If this was an Officers only pattern then sealed pattern cards may not have been made. This design like several officers only designs, has been widely reproduced with a slider as an ORs badge. I can find no evidence of its use by anyone other than officers and thus the slidered brass ones are dubious.

Thanks Alan,

Would 'officer use' include use by NCO's, as well? What I mean is; would NCOs have used the same badge officers used?

PJ

Found the attached hiding in the corner of one of my Norfolks files. Whilst it doesn't settle the constituent metals debate, it does at least confirm who wore this type of badge.

Cheers,

PJ

Norf_Badge_1.jpg Norf_Badge_3.JPG

[Hoolyboy]

Hi

I thought I'd add my penithworth. Most Norfolk collectors (Slaughter, Storey, Evans, Steele et al) have been of the view that the all GM and BM versions of the badge in question are wrong, not right, iffies, repros call them what you will. Nobody is infallible, but collectively this view is hard to challenge.

I think the thing that swings it for me is that I've never seen a real pukka looking one i.e with blow holes, signs of wear, ingrained Soldier's Friend, nice slider, genuine maker's mark etc. Basically all of the signs we look for to try to establish if a badge is right or not.

As for why badges are reproed, well who can say. Look at all of the tat you see and there is always new stuff coming out. This is one of the reasons I have been and am selling my CEF collection. My understanding is that most of it comes from the far east and India. I don't think that trying to rationalize the repro market will help here.

Most people tend to use Bosleys as a Litmus Test has anybody seen one of these for sale by him or tried to sell one trough his auction? I strongly suspect not.

Also I think what may have not helped here is one of these being shown in the (2nd rate in my opinion) Wilkinson book.

Just to change the subject has anybody got a Norfolk Regiment Pagri strip or either of the Norfolk Yeomanry Officer's Helmet plates for sale?
Dean

[leigh kitchen]

They crop up in white metal, too.

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

They crop up in white metal, too.

Hello Leigh,

Do you mean all W/M, or W/M with a G/M tablet?

PJ

[leigh kitchen]

I've seen one all of white metal, a few years ago in a shop in Peterborough, I don't think I have one.

I do have one of white metal with yellow metal scroll, slider marked "J.R.GAUNT LONDON", aquired 6 years ago.

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

I've seen one all of white metal, a few years ago in a shop in Peterborough, I don't think I have one.

I do have one of white metal with yellow metal scroll, slider marked "J.R.GAUNT LONDON", aquired 6 years ago.

Hello Leigh,

This is another bone of contention with this badge; many collectors have the opinion that they were never slidered, and K&K's description has no mention of a slider either.

Did the Birmingham Mint produce a version of this badge (all W/M)?

Peter.

[grey_green_acorn]

Here is the Birmingham Mint Royal Norfolk offering in a silvered finish with a slider