Le Regiment de la Chaudiere - Shoulder Titles and Helmet Flashes

[rubicon]

Hello Maisie,

Helmets you have presented do not have the regimental flash which was used by the Regiment de la Chaudiere during the WWII.
Blue does not exist in the Chaudiere regimental colours.
This blue-white-red flash does not match with any of the 3rd CID infantry battalions. Could match with an arm or service? But which?
The helmet presented on the mannequin head looks very suspect. Can you send a close up picture of the flash? J-F

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by chaudiere1944

Hi Rubicon,

Thanks for posting the picture. Now that I have seen a picture of this Blue Chaudiere helmet my opinion is that it is highly suspect...it is not even in a shade of Blue that I believe could possibly have oxidized or faded from a Maroon colour which was an outside consideration I contemplated.

For all the reasons I have cited/researched about 1) the religious basis for the selection of the colours by the Regiment, 2)the examples I have handled personally, and 3)the photographs I have accumlated...I personally would not invest in one with this Blue configuration. I would only buy a MK 1, MK 11 or MK111 in the Maroon, Silver (White) and Scarlet colours.

The picture of the Chaud helmet in the Museum you posted looks like one of a number I took back in 2008. I was back at the Museum in August 2011 and made a close examination of this helmet's decal and as I mentioned before it was probably added later because the decal is virtually pristine and the helmet is not.


Mike

Hello Mike,
I agree with you the decal is original but was probably added later on a surplus helmet. I took the picture when I visited the museum in July 2009.
Like you without a clear reference which prove it is original I would think the blue-white-red flash is highly suspect! They are many "artists" in Normandy and since over 30 years... J-F

[chaudiere1944]

Hello all,

Could this Blue/White/Red configuration be someone's attempt at depicting the French Tricolour on MK111 or MK11 helmets out of respect/honour to the Free French forces? My history of these forces is not the best, but did they not land in a small contigent on the British beach 'Sword'?

They are definitely not Chaudiere pieces and any attempt at passing them off as such would be highly suspect in my opinion. As you say Rubicon, 'artists' abound!

Clive:

Nice pictures you have added to your site. The middle helmet marked "not confirmed as Second World War" was a piece I considered making a run at when it was on e-bay a few years back. The application of the Cap Badge over the decal was something that held me back from bidding as this is the only piece I had seen with it on...my suspicion was that it was added later.

The picture of the Chaud standing guard, I have not seen that one before. Was it from LAC? Did the censors scratch out the Shoulder and Division Titles?


Best,
Mike

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by chaudiere1944

Hello all,

Could this Blue/White/Red configuration be someone's attempt at depicting the French Tricolour on MK111 or MK11 helmets out of respect/honour to the Free French forces? My history of these forces is not the best, but did they not land in a small contigent on the British beach 'Sword'?

They are definitely not Chaudiere pieces and any attempt at passing them off as such would be highly suspect in my opinion. As you say Rubicon, 'artists' abound!

Clive:

Nice pictures you have added to your site. The middle helmet marked "not confirmed as Second World War" was a piece I considered making a run at when it was on e-bay a few years back. The application of the Cap Badge over the decal was something that held me back from bidding as this is the only piece I had seen with it on...my suspicion was that it was added later.

The picture of the Chaud standing guard, I have not seen that one before. Was it from LAC? Did the censors scratch out the Shoulder and Division Titles?


Best,
Mike

Mike,
The 177 Free French who landed on Sword sector on Dday were all commandos from the N°10th Inter Allied Cdo and were attached to the N°4 Cdo for Overlord. They all wore MKII helmets and Green berets.
As far as my state of knowledge none French unit wore the MKIII helmet. Most of the French liberation Army wore 1941 pat US helmet and 1917 pat US helmets. Some Free French units wore the British MKII during the war. J-F

[chaudiere1944]

Hi J-F,

Thanks for the insight re: the French Forces and helmets. Your analysis certainly proves that a Blue MK111 would be strictly a fantasy piece if attempting to depict the French Forces.

In keeping with the thread...we are in complete agreement that this is definitely not a Chaudière item.

Best,
Mike

[servicepub]

Originally Posted by chaudiere1944

Clive:

The picture of the Chaud standing guard, I have not seen that one before. Was it from LAC? Did the censors scratch out the Shoulder and Division Titles?

Best,
Mike

Yes, from LAC and yes, the censors scratched out the details.

C.

[chaudiere1944]

Hi Clive,

Thanks for the response and clarification.

The reason I had asked was I had trouble at the LAC (Sept. 2010) when I tried to retrieve a number of pictures from the reference material I was sorting thru...even the staff member who was on duty at the time could not help. It was my first and only time there so I have chalked it up to being a rookie, plus there was so many other items that I was distracted by (War Diary, Video's).

I hope to make another trip there this summer to focus on the photographic aspect of my research.

Thanks again,
Mike

[servicepub]

Let me know when you come and I will guide you through the process.

C

[Little black devil]

[servicepub]

Originally Posted by chaudiere1944

For Le Regiment de la Chaudière: the Helmet Decals, the Coloured Field Service Cap (CFSC) and the Shoulder Title colours were Maroon, Silver and Scarlet... these were chosen out of tradition and respect for the colours of the outer vestments worn by high ranking Canadian Clergy when they attended Papal Conclave's (meetings).

In the writings of Captain (Padre) Turmel, it indicates that the colours were specifically an homage to His Eminence, Cardinal Jean-Marie Rodrigue-Villeneuve, Archbishop of Quebec City. His claim to fame was that he actively helped the Regiment recruit men in spring/summer of 1940 from the rural areas of Quebec. The choice was well received since the composition of the Regiments soldiers at the time were generally from the rural areas of Levis QC who were practicing Catholics. The original drawing of Maroon, Silver and Scarlet appearing on the helmet is by Lieutenant Raymond Beaudet, an officer with the Regiment during that period.

Sources for above noted: Personal Research, Jean Bouchery's Book (Canadian Soldier) and DND's website.

Best,
Mike

Mike,
This is interesting info on the choice of colours. Can you provide a reference for this? Do you know where the original drawing by Beaudet is?
Clive

[chaudiere1944]

Hi Clive,

First thank you for the offer to help on my next visit to the LAC...I will definitely take whatever guidance you can provide. I have attached an example of 1 of about 10 pictures I took with pictures I would like to see, but was unable to find... even with the staffs help.

As for the Chaudiere colours:

The first reference (secondary) that lead me to look into this further came from Jean Bouchery's book "The Canadian Soldier" on page 50 (bottom) in which it states "The traditional colours of the Regiment de la Chaudiere were Maroon, Silver (white) and Scarlet. Originally these were the colours of the chausables of the Canadian prelates chosen by the Pope to take part in the conclave." Unfortunately this book does not provide a reference for their sources.

I then began looking for other references to confirm or enhance the first. The next reference came from the following website which for whatever reason is now not working. I however had copied the section in question:

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/rdechau...&id=traditions

The banner
The Regimental files concerning the board of colours are vague. However, the writings of Captain (Padre) Turmel reveal that the choice of colours was intended to pay homage to His Eminence, Cardinal Jean-Marie Rodrigue-Villeneuve, Archbishop of Quebec City, who helped the Regiment recruit nearly 900 men in August 1940 from the rural areas of Quebec until the Regiment’s wartime objective was achieved. The colours are:

•Brown
•Silver
•Scarlet crimson
They are the colours of the prelates chosen by the Pope to be members of the College of Cardinals (Conclave). Being a French-Canadian rural unit, the Regiment maintained very close ties with the Roman Catholic Church at that time, which explains the choice. The original drawing appearing on the helmet is by Lieutenant Raymond Beaudet, an officer with the Regiment during that period.

Markings on the steel helmet

Markings on steel helmets were common prior to World War II. The regimental crest or various emblems were painted or transferred (decals), normally on the left-hand side of the helmet. This custom was permitted during the war, provided unit orders and instructions were adhered to. The markings included: the regimental crest, the unit coat of arms, lettering and/or coloured stripes with the aim of achieving a distinctive appearance.

Helmet markings first appeared around 1942 in England, where the Regiment was stationed at the time. The above secondary reference I believe came from the Archives at the Chaudiere Musuem. It does however have a few errors: the colour Brown should be Maroon and the Helmet markings appear in 1942 is incorrect as per the attached file from LAC dated June 27, 1941 and photographic evidence with the Chauds wearing the Helmet Flash in 1941.

I am still looking for Beaudet's drawing...I have sorted thru all the pages in the War Diary, most of the miscellaneous documents at LAC pertaining to the Chauds to no avail. One of my next missions is to once again visit the Museum of the Régiment de la Chaudière to go thru their archives. My hope is that the primary reference material resides there.

In conclusion, with the secondary sources, the numerous photographs and War Diary entries with a religious connection I have come across, I am convinced that this forms the basis for the choice of colours.

Mike

[Bill A]

On an ebay auction, a Mk II with the blue / white / red "flash". http://www.ebay.ca/itm/WW2-Regiment-...item2c649db8f5

[chaudiere1944]

Regarding these Blue Flashed Chaudière Helmets...I am engaged in a spirited debate on the linked Forum which I rarely visit and have made 6 total posts (5 on this topic).

I have been called 'stupid' and 'ignorant' by the owner of the Helmet. Maybe I should have ignored the guy who posted and instead focused on the Hockey Playoffs...but I could not let the spread of this false Helmet go without addressing it.

By the way...thanks Clive for chiming in!

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=668250

And in the spirit of contributing to this Forum...my attachment is a little something I picked up last year and am very honoured to have added to my growing collection for the Chaudière. It is a Coloured Field Service Cap to an Other Ranks Chaudière...these are extremely rare/scarce and I was fortunate to snag it.

Best,
Mike Kennelly

[servicepub]

Originally Posted by chaudiere1944

Regarding these Blue Flashed Chaudière Helmets...I am engaged in a spirited debate on the linked Forum which I rarely visit and have made 6 total posts (5 on this topic).

I have been called 'stupid' and 'ignorant' by the owner of the Helmet. Maybe I should have ignored the guy who posted and instead focused on the Hockey Playoffs...but I could not let the spread of this false Helmet go without addressing it.

By the way...thanks Clive for chiming in!

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=668250

My pleasure. There are a number of posts at http://www.cdnmilitarycollectors.com...forms-headgear dealing with painted SWW Canadian helmets. It appears that these are especially sought after by European collectors, especially French, leading to some doubt as to authenticity.

And in the spirit of contributing to this Forum...my attachment is a little something I picked up last year and am very honoured to have added to my growing collection for the Chaudière. It is a Coloured Field Service Cap to an Other Ranks Chaudière...these are extremely rare/scarce and I was fortunate to snag it.

Best,
Mike Kennelly

I believe you promised to sell this to me - at a loss. I am still waiting for your e-mail

Clive

[Phillip Herring]

The owner of the helmet is displaying his zeal by putting the Quebec flag in the photo. I don't think Quebec adopted that flag until some time after the war.

Phil