more fun with die statistics

[SemperFi]

JT, apologies for a couple of things: a) Not being able to respond yesterday (I’m in public health so with Covid going on, I have been slammed with my day job), and b) misstating in my earlier post what you said in your 20th post—I completely captured what you expressed incorrectly!

I believe you’re spot on with your theory that manufactures likely added WM scrolls to surplus EI strikes after the war. Here are a pair of the infamous punch face Norfolk fakes: 1 BM and 1 EI. Why I selected these fakes is because they demonstrate overlaying a scroll onto another badge, albeit in reverse of QRWS badges, and also the use of a same pattern for two different badge types.

1 Punch Face Die.jpg

1 Punch Face Rev.jpg

What makes these fakes even a bit more useful is the overlaid scroll on the BM is the same pattern as the scroll on the EI. Where I’m going with this about the overlaid scrolls is that I would not be surprised if you find some overlaid WM scrolls on your QRWS badges matching with some scroll patterns on corresponding EIs. If a faker figured it out and has done it, surely a manufacture did so as well!

I’ve seen the QRWS you attached in your 23rd post—yep, I totally agree that one is wholly spurious (and an awful looker to boot! )—but it’s not the badge I was thinking of in my earlier post. Before I go there, for some comic relief I couldn’t resist showing this monstrosity…LOL!

Awful QRWS.jpg

I’ve circled the reverse die flaw that’s on the left scroll tips of a Woodward marked and unmarked badge in the side-by-side comparison below. What I was wondering was if there is a 3rd version of this badge that’s a restrike. The restrike possibility didn’t hit me (pun not intended) until recently. I saw some badges with what I thought were wonky sliders and although the sliders didn’t quite look right, it didn’t click until later that the badges might have been restrikes. If I run across similar badges again, I’ll grab photos!

1 QRWS Die Flaw.jpg

I may have this entirely wrong but I thought Woodward only made badges during the war. I think I saw that in connection, but I’m not certain, with an old post by Ticker Riley in which he listed manufactures that received wartime contracts. At any rate, if Woodward dropped out of the business after the war but you find the pattern with a WM scroll, then I think you have strong evidence to further support your theory that surplus QRWS EIs likely were post-war repurposed into BM badges.

Why I say the above about Woodward is because I’ve been tracing several patterns of other badges whose use spanned from the late Victorian or early Edwardian period until up to at least the time EIs were mandated. If a manufacturer continued on with using a same pattern after the war, then it’s much more difficult to ascertain that their WM overlay badges were repurposed EIs vs. newer strikes. I don’t recall seeing that Lambourne made EI QRWS, if they did, and you find one of their badges with a WM scroll, then they also are another source of evidence since I believe Lambourne also left the business after the war (I might be wrong about Lambourne, too—am working off old guy memory, which can be scary stuff…yikes!).

Best regards,
Jay

[Jelly Terror]

Jay,

Before I reply in full to your post, would you be able to provide pictures of the backs of the fake Norfolk badge scrolls, please?

With thanks,

JT

[SemperFi]

JT,

I uploaded the fake Norfolk reverse, an improved-resolution fake Norfolk obverse, and an improved-resolution Woodward reverse.

[Jelly Terror]

Jay,

Originally Posted by SemperFi

What makes these fakes even a bit more useful is the overlaid scroll on the BM is the same pattern as the scroll on the EI. Where I’m going with this about the overlaid scrolls is that I would not be surprised if you find some overlaid WM scrolls on your QRWS badges matching with some scroll patterns on corresponding EIs. If a faker figured it out and has done it, surely a manufacture did so as well!

I’ve circled the reverse die flaw that’s on the left scroll tips of a Woodward marked and unmarked badge in the side-by-side comparison below.

Following on from your comments regarding the QRWS scroll die fault, I examined closely all the examples in my collection. The pictures below show the section of scroll you refer to, in respect of three separate badges:

BM No Fault.jpg Bi-metal (without back stamp) and no die fault. This badge (in my opinion) pre-dates the production/issue of all-G/M badges, and does not bear the die fault to which you refer. Every example of this variant in my collection is exactly the same.

All GM Die Fault.jpg All-G/M with the die fault. This badge is an all-G/M badge and does have the die fault, as do all the other all-G/M QRWS badges in my collection (Pattern 4681A/1916).

BM Back Stamp Fault.jpg Bi-metal (with back stamp) with die fault. This badge is bi-metal and has lettering stamped in the brass section of the scroll. It also has the die fault, as do all the other examples of this variant in my collection.

The third badge depicted is an example of the type of badge I propose was issued/worn after the cessation of the production of all-G/M badges in 1919, where manufacturers might simply have adapted their excess all-G/M stock, by applying white metal scrolls directly on top of the unsupplied all-G/M badges. The fact that this badge bears the same die fault as the all-G/M badge (and it is not the only fault they have in common) and that it has lettering stamped into the brass section of the scroll, is, in my opinion, conclusive evidence that this badge began life as an all-G/M badge and was subsequently altered/adapted to become bi-metal, and can therefore be dated as being issued/worn post-1919. This would also mean that Woodward were supplying badges post-war.

So your observation has definitely moved the theory forward, and helped to show that this must have been a practice adopted by manufacturers. It makes financial sense for manufacturers to have done this, but proving it is/was another matter. I believe it can now be said with certainty that this practice most definitely occurred.

JT

[SemperFi]

JT,

Congratulations and brilliant detective work--well done! I was hopeful you had enough of Woodward variants in your collection to validate your theory. I absolutely agree other manufacturers also likely made similar adaptations to their surplus GM badges when possible.

Of the 8 variants you've thus far identified, where you only see a particular manufacturer's die pattern used for 1916 GMs and the same pattern but with a WM scroll, you can reasonably infer these badges were also likely adapted GM badges. Further comparing the fonts on GM and WM scrolls will move you even further forward when you find matches. The tails of the Qs, and to a lesser extent the apostrophes, have been some of the helpful features I've used for identifying GM variants.

Again, well done!
Jay