Mystery button - possibly RCN?

[RCN]

I acquired these two buttons recently primarily as I don't know what they are & would like to know.

The vendor stated that he thought they were RCN & thought the initials on the buttons might be: NWT = Naval Weapons Technician.

Now this I doubt very much simply as no RCN rate/trade had the trade initials on their buttons, & a rate of Naval Weapons Tech'n would not have existed in the timeframe this button was in use.

They are definitely 2WW era, & possibly earlier, made by Scully. The large button is somewhat larger than a normal uniform tunic button, being 1 1/8",
the size of the smaller of the button is 5/8".

Originally I had thought NWT might stand for North West Territories, but I have my doubts about that also as I have never seen any specific Provincial/Territories buttons in the past.
None of the Canadian provinces or territories had their own navy with one brief exception - BC had two C class subs in the early days of August 1914 which they had purchased privately from a shipbuilding firm in Seattle.

So anyone have any ideas or thoughts on this button?

RCN Bryan

[DavidS]

I'm taking a wild guess that it is something like 'naval wireless telegraphy'. On that tack, I found this which, though no real support at all, may be a hint: http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/eng/CCG/USQUE_Telegraph

Here is another link with a bit more info, although I'd guess the button should say "N.R.S." if they were called naval radio stations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_R...ion_Aldergrove

[RCN]

Thanks for those links David. I too was thinking perhaps somehow tied into Canadian Coast Guard - but certainly the designation of Naval Wireless Telegraphy sounds plausible, I feel certainly more believable than Naval Weapons Technician!

In the day I just dont think they would have been called Technicians --Artificers perhaps would be more likely.

yes I could see N.R.S as well, certainly if N.W.T was in existence, then it would follow that N.R.S. might also exist if we are on the right tack!

I have also written to obtain the opinion of a Canadian button expert, & will report back.

B

[RCN]

Originally Posted by DavidS

although I'd guess the button should say "N.R.S." if they were called naval radio stations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_R...ion_Aldergrove

David there definitely was a RCN Cap ribbon entitled H.M.C. RADIO STATION during the post war 1946 -'68 period.

B

[DavidS]

Originally Posted by RCN

Thanks for those links David. I too was thinking perhaps somehow tied into Canadian Coast Guard - but certainly the designation of Naval Wireless Telegraphy sounds plausible, I feel certainly more believable than Naval Weapons Technician!

In the day I just dont think they would have been called Technicians --Artificers perhaps would be more likely.

yes I could see N.R.S as well, certainly if N.W.T was in existence, then it would follow that N.R.S. might also exist if we are on the right tack!

I have also written to obtain the opinion of a Canadian button expert, & will report back.

B

Bryan: I don't have a copy, but would there maybe be something in Smiley's book on buttons?

[RCN]

Originally Posted by DavidS

Bryan: I don't have a copy, but would there maybe be something in Smiley's book on buttons?

Nor do I David, as I don't really collect buttons, perhaps someone will pick up on this who does,

& who is Smiley? name unknown to me...

B

[DavidS]

My bad for the misspelling; what I get for typing from memory. Smylie! "BUTTONS: Of the Canadian Militia, Army and Air Force, 1900-1990". Now that I found the title, you're probably out of luck anyway, seeing that big lack of 'Navy' anywhere in the title.

[DavidS]

Maybe Wm. 'Buttons' Miller can chime in

(Sorry, it's an in joke)

[btns]

No, it is not in Smylie's book. It has two pages on naval buttons.

[GTB]

For what it's worth I'd say North Western Telegraph (short for Great North Western Telegraph Company of Canada)

GTB

[RCN]

I was able to make contact with a button collector who apparently is knowledgable, & this button is pictured on his site ID'd as a "Naval Weapons Technician".
However, he was unable to substantiate this claim & had no proof that it was indeed what he claimed it was,& to my mind, without substantial proof this invalidates his claim.

I don't believe this is what he purports it to be for a few reasons, I stated a couple in my introductory post above & I will expand below......

Its definitely a 2WW period button & an Officer grade(rank) button.
Officers were not Technicians in our Navy, either after the Integration of the CAF, or prior to that, ie: the "old" RCN.

The term "Technician" to describe a skilled tradesman was not in use until our Forces Integrated in 1968. Prior to that period skilled tradesmen serving in the RCN were 'Artificers' - ie: Electrical Artificer, Engine Room Artificer, Aircraft Artificer.

Weapons branch ratings were classed as Quarters, Layer, Anti Aircraft, & Radar rates, & later in the 1960's period were simply Weapons Surface,
Weapons Underwater, or Weapons Air. At no time was there a rate/branch referred to as "Weapons Technicians".

We never had trade specific buttons on issue in the RCN at any time, to the best of my knowledge.

So, to my mind that completely discounts the claim that this button is anything to do with a (naval) Technician.

What it is exactly I don't know either, but someday someone might come along that knows & can provide proof of its ID,

& I do thank all who have contributed to trying to ID this button!

RCN Bryan

[btns]

Originally Posted by RCN

I was able to make contact with a button collector who apparently is knowledgable, & this button is pictured on his site ID'd as a "Naval Weapons Technician".
However, he was unable to substantiate this claim & had no proof that it was indeed what he claimed it was,& to my mind, without substantial proof this invalidates his claim.

I don't believe this is what he purports it to be for a few reasons, I stated a couple in my introductory post above & I will expand below......

Its definitely a 2WW period button & an Officer grade(rank) button.
Officers were not Technicians in our Navy, either after the Integration of the CAF, or prior to that, ie: the "old" RCN.

The term "Technician" to describe a skilled tradesman was not in use until our Forces Integrated in 1968. Prior to that period skilled tradesmen serving in the RCN were 'Artificers' - ie: Electrical Artificer, Engine Room Artificer, Aircraft Artificer.

Weapons branch ratings were classed as Quarters, Layer, Anti Aircraft, & Radar rates, & later in the 1960's period were simply Weapons Surface,
Weapons Underwater, or Weapons Air. At no time was there a rate/branch referred to as "Weapons Technicians".

We never had trade specific buttons on issue in the RCN at any time, to the best of my knowledge.

So, to my mind that completely discounts the claim that this button is anything to do with a (naval) Technician.

What it is exactly I don't know either, but someday someone might come along that knows & can provide proof of its ID,

& I do thank all who have contributed to trying to ID this button!

RCN Bryan

I agree with you.

Without any proof I guess it is a button used by one of the government services. During the 1950s many British colonies had British style navy buttons with additional letters or words.
One example I know has G.&.E.I. across the crown and anchor.

Most of these buttons are from old manufacturer's stock, probably one production run only. Finding buttons in used condition is very rare.

Canada and N.W.T. indicate a maritime service run by the Northwest Territories government. It could have been a marine service, harbour service, fishery inspection or even a ferry service for remote areas.
Probably it was a short lived service. I guess the best place to search are the NWT government archives.




G.&.E.I. = Gilbert & Ellice Islands
(They had a fleet of battleships and aircraft carriers during the 1950s)

[RCN]

Originally Posted by btns

I agree with you.

Without any proof I guess it is a button used by one of the government services. During the 1950s many British colonies had British style navy buttons with additional letters or words.
One example I know has G.&.E.I. across the crown and anchor.

Most of these buttons are from old manufacturer's stock, probably one production run only. Finding buttons in used condition is very rare.

Canada and N.W.T. indicate a maritime service run by the Northwest Territories government. It could have been a marine service, harbour service, fishery inspection or even a ferry service for remote areas.
Probably it was a short lived service. I guess the best place to search are the NWT government archives.




G.&.E.I. = Gilbert & Ellice Islands
(They had a fleet of battleships and aircraft carriers during the 1950s)

Yes btns, I tend to agree with you on the speculation that it might have something to do with Canada's North West Territories - Canada certainly had RCMP & RCN ships in the waters of our far north & still does today.
That was my original thought but I have never heard of or seen any Province specific buttons - but it is certainly possible the NWT button might have been worn by uniformed Officers serving on ship(s) patrolling in these northern waters.

Thanks,
Bryan