NZ WW1 MG Reinforcements cap badge

[nzef1940]

....

[atillathenunns]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/List...x?id=707484636



A NZ reinforcement frame with a British MG badge is an interesting combination
Check out post 134.
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...t=14865&page=9

[nzef1940]

Very well spotted, many thanks.

Reminiscent of the Kiwi WW2 workshop
made armoured badges with the British tanks pinched
from their badges!

[atillathenunns]

.....

[nzef1940]

And there we have it, pretty much the kind of response (though delayed) I
was expecting from you Brett. Good one mate....

[atillathenunns]

Come clean Mike you are not a novice collector, if you didn't have doubts yourself you would not have asked for peoples thoughts.
However in the interest of what the reinforcement badge gurus have to say on the subject I've deleted my last comments and am interested to hear what other forum members think.

[nzef1940]

Other forum members will no doubt note
that whilst we all accept this badge frame
as a known reinforcements type, the wording
actually states 'Exped Force' and not Reinforcements.

Therefore not at all outside the realms of possibility or reasonability for the
Badge to be adapted in theatre by a soldier who perhaps
was unable to procure an NZMG cap badge and decided to
alter his Reo badge to suit.

A good badge to adapt with the iconic
Kiwi etc and the fact it states 'Exped Force.

As already stated reminds me of the NZ WW2 theatre
adapted Armoured badges.

[atillathenunns]

Mike, it’s not about your badge being “outside the realms of possibility or reasonability,” in fact Geoffrey Lowe’s book “NZ Reinforcement Badges 1914-1918” describes and pictures your very badge on page 37. The problem is your badge looks very very suspicious when viewed from the back and I am guessing that is the reason the reinforcement badge gurus didn’t want to take a punt on it.

You have to admit it’s a little unusual to have what is essentially one of the rarest NZ machine gun badges getting only one bid, and yet a less rare NZ machine gun badge being offered the following day sells for a lot more. (Although it has been excessively cleaned it still looks 100% when viewed from the back)

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/List...x?id=707278745

In regards to your “Exped Force and not Reinforcements” comment, the 34th Reinforcements badge was indeed worn by some members of the 2NZEF, however unlike the WW1 die stamped versions the WW2 versions would have been sand cast.

The Kiwi WW2 workshop made armoured badges with the British tanks pinched from their badges as I have already pointed out, it is my opinion they were made in Egypt and not New Zealand. Whereas the NZ Onward tank badge that you own in my opinion was made in New Zealand.

[nzef1940]

.....

[pukman]

Having talked to many experience collectors and dealers of badges and militaria in the last few years has made me less naïve that I once was .Every thing is not so black and white as it used to be (or was it !!!) and its a matter of buyer beware and buyer education .

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by pukman

Having talked to many experience collectors and dealers of badges and militaria in the last few years has made me less naïve that I once was .Every thing is not so black and white as it used to be (or was it !!!) and its a matter of buyer beware and buyer education .

I think it is worth mentioning that Geoffrey Lowe’s New Zealand Reinforcement Badge book was published way back in 1987, but originally it was produced as a series of five articles for the NZ Military Historical Society beginning in 1981, so we are long overdue for a revised corrected edition.

As far as buyer education goes, Lowe separates reinforcement badges into two categories, the first being those that were produced for wear by individual soldiers, and the second being those that were produced for wear as patriotic badges.
However IMO a third category should be added that encompasses reinforcement badges that were made for the collectors market during and after WW1.

To help explain the following badge was recently offered on Trade-me as a. — “NZ WWI 1ST REINFORCEMENTS CAP / COLLAR BADGE”
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/List...x?id=707890508



The truth is the 1st triple fern badge was never worn as cap or collar badge by the first reinforcements, and the fact that it has lugs instead of a pin back suggests it was not produced as a patriotic badge.
Instead the 1st triple fern badge qualifies as being purposely produced for the collectors market and is known to have been produced during WW1. (Most likely continued to be produced after WW1 for the collectors market)

The following badge is currently being offered on Trade-me as a. — “1st Reinforcement Cap Badge Wellington Infantry ??”
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/List...x?id=710481774



Again this badge was never worn as a cap badge by the first reinforcements, and again its lugs suggest that it was produced solely for the collectors market, and I am inclined to think it was produced after WW1.

Unfortunately NZ reinforcement badges have bigger following today than they did 90 years ago meaning demand is much bigger than supply, so in recent years we have seen an increase in fake reinforcement badges, and I personally know a badge collector who has professionally altered original reinforcement frames to fill missing gaps in various collections, and have heard stories of other collectors doing similar things. So it is very much a matter of buyer beware.

The following reinforcement badge frame is currently being offered on Trade-me and goes to show that unfinished frames still turn up quite regularly.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/List...x?id=710558942



Albert Einstein. — “Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.”

[pukman]

There's an old saying ,''all the glitters is not always gold'' .

Lets hope someone can put together a comprehensive reference book on reinforcement badges ,to update the knowledge that has been learned ,and enhance the learning that has gone before ,so future generations of collectors have a solid base

[citylimits]

Some time back I collected enough artifacts to produce a shadow box to commemorate our four Great-Grand Uncle's service during the Great War.
Over time I was able to collect these artifacts save for the Third Reinforcement triple furn badge.

Because of this, I had a manufacturing jeweler make for me a facsimile - not a copy because I was without any reference material describing the dimensions of the original badge.
I imagine that what I ended up with was probably much smaller than the original.
All the other badges I have collected that are relevant to my great-uncles service are original issue.

Having stumbled on to this page as a result of a google search I found a picture of the 1st reinforcement badge and I was prompted by this to ask if you would, provide me with the dimensions of this badge so that I can have a more correctly sized badge created that represents what I am wishing to achieve.

Are you in a position to help me out in this matter?

Kind regards
Bruce Gibbins
Wellinton, New Zealand.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by citylimits

Some time back I collected enough artifacts to produce a shadow box to commemorate our four Great-Grand Uncle's service during the Great War.
Over time I was able to collect these artifacts save for the Third Reinforcement triple furn badge.

Because of this, I had a manufacturing jeweler make for me a facsimile - not a copy because I was without any reference material describing the dimensions of the original badge.
I imagine that what I ended up with was probably much smaller than the original.
All the other badges I have collected that are relevant to my great-uncles service are original issue.

Having stumbled on to this page as a result of a google search I found a picture of the 1st reinforcement badge and I was prompted by this to ask if you would, provide me with the dimensions of this badge so that I can have a more correctly sized badge created that represents what I am wishing to achieve.

Are you in a position to help me out in this matter?

Kind regards
Bruce Gibbins
Wellinton, New Zealand.

The dimensions of the numbered triple fern badge is 37mm wide 28mm high