County of London Yeomanry

[fearnaught]

Hi, maybe the large 4 was a hallmark of Walker & Hall, the only Middle East made badges that I have are of the large 4, and the small 4 were JR Gaunt manufacture which were made when the regiment returned to England prior to D Day? Have you a small 4 Middle East made badge? Also have you seen or heard of the Gaunt badge prior to the 21st century? Mike

[Viletone]

Originally Posted by PeterA

Fearnaught

I have two of these full size Gaunt marked badges with the small '4' and I have always assumed they were fake...but still interesting to me. They were a modest price.

I base this judgement of authenticity on a badge that sold on ebay for over£200. It was offered to me privately prior to this. The images attached show a very crisp detail of the Gaunt mark casting compared to the two I have.

I have never seen a full size cap badge with the large 'Styled 4' as on the collars. Boris Mollo has it in his book but I cannot locate one in the Sharpshooters museum website. I believe that the 'Styled 4' collar was used by some in a service hat and this has caused confusion.

Can anybody with more knowledge enlighten us?

PeterA

The 4th CoL is a fascinating badge. As well as the collars, Walker & Hall also made the shoulder titles so I can't understand why the regiment would turn to Gaunt for the cap badge. The large one in the photo has a much neater Gaunt brand, the copies are very indistinct, plus the 4 looks to be thinner metal where it's quite chunky on the copies.

I have problems even with this badge though and that's the fact it's cast and not die stamped which every other Sharpshooters OR's badge is. If it's an officer's pattern (and being maker marked it gives that impression) then it ought to be silver and gilt. Also 99.9% of Gaunt officers badges, bronze, silver, silver and gilt have their name impressed into the casting and not raised.

[fearnaught]

Hi, I think much the same as you but I think there must have been a small size 4 collar badge as mine came from an old collection and also there is the sweetheart of the same design. The Regiment did wear the collar badge as a cap so maybe the small 4 one was obtained and worn on their return from the Med. theatre, that would explain the break with the Sheffield maker or maybe they had ceased making badges at that point in the war. I haven't seen the straight 4CLY title maybe if someone has one they could let us know if that has a maker's name. It could possibly be of the same period as the small 4 badge. Mike

[Viletone]

Originally Posted by fearnaught

Hi, I think much the same as you but I think there must have been a small size 4 collar badge as mine came from an old collection and also there is the sweetheart of the same design. The Regiment did wear the collar badge as a cap so maybe the small 4 one was obtained and worn on their return from the Med. theatre, that would explain the break with the Sheffield maker or maybe they had ceased making badges at that point in the war. I haven't seen the straight 4CLY title maybe if someone has one they could let us know if that has a maker's name. It could possibly be of the same period as the small 4 badge. Mike

I'm led to wonder if the 4th badge actually existed as an official issue. K&K state the badge with the w/m CLY centre as a sealed pattern in 1940 and given the fact that the pattern dates are often a lot later than the first issue of the badge they could have been wearing it soon after 1938 which K&K state the XXIII centre badge it was worn until ? (Why this cap badge is rarer but worn for longer than the 23rd/CLY has been discussed earlier in this post!)

Could it be different squadrons wore their own collar badges, ie: the old 3rd wore the crossed rifles and the newly raised 4th wore the collar made made Walker & Hall but both wore the larger bimetal CLY cap badge? It would certainly explain why collar badges are more abundant than cap badges. Maybe some members of the 4th took exception and removed the CLY and replaced it with the tin cut looking 4 to match the Walker & Hall collars, hence the existence of known items?

I'm interested in the difference between the bimetal and all brass collar. Is the nickel 4 an overlay or is it braised to the crossed rifles and are the brass sections from an identical die. The Walker & Hall collars certainly have an emergency look about them and are probaly the earlier versions.

As for PeterA's post regarding the bimetal 3rd Col collar, it's new one on me and a three figure sum for a collar is frightening!

[PeterA]

Originally Posted by fearnaught

Hi, I think much the same as you but I think there must have been a small size 4 collar badge as mine came from an old collection and also there is the sweetheart of the same design. The Regiment did wear the collar badge as a cap so maybe the small 4 one was obtained and worn on their return from the Med. theatre, that would explain the break with the Sheffield maker or maybe they had ceased making badges at that point in the war. I haven't seen the straight 4CLY title maybe if someone has one they could let us know if that has a maker's name. It could possibly be of the same period as the small 4 badge. Mike

No makers name on the rear of the straight 4CLY.

PeterA

[PeterA]

Originally Posted by Viletone

The 4th CoL is a fascinating badge. As well as the collars, Walker & Hall also made the shoulder titles so I can't understand why the regiment would turn to Gaunt for the cap badge. The large one in the photo has a much neater Gaunt brand, the copies are very indistinct, plus the 4 looks to be thinner metal where it's quite chunky on the copies.

I have problems even with this badge though and that's the fact it's cast and not die stamped which every other Sharpshooters OR's badge is. If it's an officer's pattern (and being maker marked it gives that impression) then it ought to be silver and gilt. Also 99.9% of Gaunt officers badges, bronze, silver, silver and gilt have their name impressed into the casting and not raised.

I have what appears to be an OR 'Sharpshooter' cap badge, cast with crisp Gaunt/London raised characters, eyelets and white metal CLY for 3/4.

I also have one ditto without the makers marks that looks a little suspect

A puzzle.

PeterA

[PeterA]

Originally Posted by fearnaught

Hi, these are my collars as per Mollo's book but he does miss some badges as with the 4th other ranks collars. I would like to know if the enamelled badge is a sweethearts or an officer's side cap? Also all my British produced 4th CLY were made by Walker & Hall of Sheffield, including the enamelled badge hallmarked 1940 and the S/Titles, but recently I've seen 2 or 3 J R Gaunt marked Officers badges. The only full size 4th that I've heard of were the bullion badge and the crude middle east made badge, one of which I've included. Does anyone know of the provenance of these Gaunt badges? The other small 4th is a sweetheart, all brass and pin backed. Mike

Your enamelled 4CLY looks to be very similar in colour choice to this enamelled 3CLY brooch.

All these broooches seem of collar proportion.

PeterA

[fearnaught]

Hi, the brooches are very interesting, one wonders why three different designs and different again from the collar which has the dot on the left-hand rifle butt. Mollo shows this correctly on all the badges except the 4th. The Walker & Hall 4th has two dots on the collar and is identical to his drawing K which he calls the cap badge i.e. the dots next to the CO and RY and he shows the small 4 with two dots whereas my two examples have only one dot next to the UN. What are yours like? My small 4 collar is typical cast officer's quality, but an all in one casting; the 4 being painted on. My cast 4th cap badge is one piece with the 4 painted on but it is the W&H style 4, same size as the collar, on a JR Gaunt style CLY.( I have a CLY with small style JR Gaunt London slider, which I hope is right) All this tends to back viletones argument. How come the name? Also do you or someone have an officer's Gaunt marked CLY? Mike.

[PeterA]

Originally Posted by fearnaught

Hi, the brooches are very interesting, one wonders why three different designs and different again from the collar which has the dot on the left-hand rifle butt. Mollo shows this correctly on all the badges except the 4th. The Walker & Hall 4th has two dots on the collar and is identical to his drawing K which he calls the cap badge i.e. the dots next to the CO and RY and he shows the small 4 with two dots whereas my two examples have only one dot next to the UN. What are yours like? My small 4 collar is typical cast officer's quality, but an all in one casting; the 4 being painted on. My cast 4th cap badge is one piece with the 4 painted on but it is the W&H style 4, same size as the collar, on a JR Gaunt style CLY.( I have a CLY with small style JR Gaunt London slider, which I hope is right) All this tends to back viletones argument. How come the name? Also do you or someone have an officer's Gaunt marked CLY? Mike.

The plot thickens.

I have a pair of 'small 4' collars plus a converted brooch. All have the single dot on the RH butt. All have integral 4. By my judgment they are stampings.

I have two pairs (four examples) of the 'large 4' collars and also a converted brooch. Three have a dots on the right butt, one has a dot on both butts and one, of generally lower quality, has no dots. All have white metal stylised 4. All a have 'W&H Ld SHFD' on the rear although it is indistinct on some, partially linished on another and super sharp on another.They are all probably castings but one is so good it could be a stamping.

PeterA

[PeterA]

Originally Posted by fearnaught

Hi, the brooches are very interesting, one wonders why three different designs and different again from the collar which has the dot on the left-hand rifle butt. Mollo shows this correctly on all the badges except the 4th. The Walker & Hall 4th has two dots on the collar and is identical to his drawing K which he calls the cap badge i.e. the dots next to the CO and RY and he shows the small 4 with two dots whereas my two examples have only one dot next to the UN. What are yours like? My small 4 collar is typical cast officer's quality, but an all in one casting; the 4 being painted on. My cast 4th cap badge is one piece with the 4 painted on but it is the W&H style 4, same size as the collar, on a JR Gaunt style CLY.( I have a CLY with small style JR Gaunt London slider, which I hope is right) All this tends to back viletones argument. How come the name? Also do you or someone have an officer's Gaunt marked CLY? Mike.

Mike,

Do you mean like this?

One looks a bit flaky, literally.





PeterA

[fearnaught]

Hi, very interesting officers badges. Will have to think about them, I'm assuming the dark badge is a bronze officers. As to the collars, my cast W&H has only the dot on the right. Maybe they were actually ordered regimentally from a local badge maker. They usually have a much thicker lugs, being made from flat copper wire. I think this idea that if you lost your badge you went down the local bazaar and had one made only really refers to having silver badges made from English silver coinage. I had the luck to aquire two tank badge collections recently, so had a lot of badges to compare, and all the Indian/M.E. made badges were identical other than some were silver plated the others plain brass. Something to think about. Maybe some others have the cast version of the W&H collar and can look for the dot. Will be tied up for the next two weeks but will be in touch. Mike PS what are the slots on the bottom of the bronze badge?

[Viletone]

I was wondering about the slots at the base too?

Is this badge mis-cast though. I don't know if casting was a single process of pouring the molten metal into a mould but this one appears to have a shadow or ridge in all areas.

They are both interesting badges though but I still think the bimetal one leads itself to having the CLY removed and replaced with a 4. Maybe that was officially sanctioned, maybe the large badge is an officers issue only?

Too many questions I'm afraid.

[PeterA]

Originally Posted by Viletone

I was wondering about the slots at the base too?

Is this badge mis-cast though. I don't know if casting was a single process of pouring the molten metal into a mould but this one appears to have a shadow or ridge in all areas.

They are both interesting badges though but I still think the bimetal one leads itself to having the CLY removed and replaced with a 4. Maybe that was officially sanctioned, maybe the large badge is an officers issue only?

Too many questions I'm afraid.

Those slots.

They are not evenly spaced and under a glass appear to be casting collapse.
If these badges were pressure die cast, as I suspect, this failure probably happened at die separation.



I know little about specific badge manufacture but there are a number of different casting techniques for non ferrous metal, from simple sand castings up to very expensive precision die forming. To achieve some of the definition we see on some badges there will have been high tool cost for relatively modest production numbers.

Can anybody enlighten us more?

PeterA

[fearnaught]

Hi, the bronze badge appears to have the back and front not aligned, hence the bits showing. I can't believe Gaunt would have let that one out. Not scientific but thats my best. As both badges are the same size one can only assume the other is a cast copy as well. Maybe you could measure it against an o/r cap badge, Gaunt tended to use the same obverse, so they should all be the same size. Does anyone have another example of an CLY officer's cap badge? Mike.

[fearnaught]

Hi, the mystery of the collar badges deepen. Was sucessful in getting some more Sharpshooters collars, more variants and questions. First are two officers' bronze collars for the XX111. One appears to be a cast of a J&Co cast collar and the other a casting of that, hence the decreasing size. The larger one is 3.12 the other 2.98 cm. Any ideas why anyone would copy a copy and does anyone have an original casting. Sometimes J&co put a faint impression inside the crown depression. Secondly my 23rd seem to have three finishes, the first is silver and gilt the second I would say is an o/r's brass and white metal, but Mollo says o/r's wore RTC collar badges? and the third appears to have a bronze finish on the back, not natural ageing. Any ideas? Thirdly I picked up a 23rd with a silver 3. Not listed in Mollo. Does anyone have an idea what,when and where? Mike.