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  #1  
Old 15-06-09, 10:07 PM
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Default Commodore

During WW2,did Commodore's wear 1 1/4" braid or 1 5/8" ? If the former, when did the wide braid come into effect? Is it only Copmmodores that wear the 1 5/8" ? If I am not mistaken the Admirals still wear 1 1/4" while Commodores wear the wider one. I know there are a number of questions here but could someone answer them all. Ray

Last edited by boots and saddles; 16-06-09 at 02:23 AM.
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  #2  
Old 16-06-09, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boots and saddles View Post
During WW2,did Commodore's wear 1 1/4" braid or 1 5/8" ? If the former, when did the wide braid come into effect? Is it only Copmmodores that wear the 1 5/8" ? If I am not mistaken the Admirals still wear 1 1/4" while Commodores wear the wider one. I know there are a number of questions here but could someone answer them all. Ray
Ray,
take a little time and write down what you wish to know and I will do my best to forward to you scans and details of the questions that I'm able to answer.

Just to add to the problem of braid width, members of the Royal Family whilst in RN uniform wear the old width from before 1919 of ⅝", there's a tail as to the reason why
but I believe it was due to Whitehall failing to ask for the King's approval.
In 1919 the ⅝" braid was reduced to ½".
IN 1931 all ½" strips were increased to 9/16"
As for WWII I believe,
Admirals and Commodores large stripe was 1¾" 44.5mm with the Admirals having additional strips of 9/16" 14mm and the curl was 2" 14mm in diameter.
Be warned I'm no expert but I believe the above to be correct.

As for WWII,
Admirals and Commodores large stripe was 1¾" 44.5mm with the Admirals having additional strips of 9/16" 14mm and the curl was 2" 14mm in diameter.
Be warned I'm no expert but I believe the above to be correct.
Regads
WF
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  #3  
Old 16-06-09, 10:57 PM
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Default Fleet Rank

Thanks WF for getting in touch. I have some questions about two different widths of braid one for Commodore & one for Admirals, In all pictures that I have seen the wide braid have been the same for both ranks(all fleet ranks in fact)
I am in pocession of a slip-on for a Commodore & a shoulder board for a Rear Admiral, The former (commodore) is 1-5/8 " in width while the othe (Admirals) is 1-3/16th " Question one, Is the extra wide braid something new or did it always exist for Commodores, Question two, Is it because one is a slip-on & the other a shoulder board? Question three
, would both the Admiral's & the Commodores shoulder board have the same width braid. I hope I haven't been too confusing. Ray
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Old 17-06-09, 08:52 AM
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Ray
They should be the same - but not sure if regs have changed for slip-on's!
Trying to find out and I will get back to you, Most my info is pre 50's.
Saying that you sometimes get tailors [and officers] stretching the rules.
Regards
WF
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Old 19-06-09, 02:02 PM
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Just to add to what I've said previously you can find quite a number of variations of slides that don't conform to the regulations.
Here's a few links that may help you and if you wish for any further information just let me know.
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/training...adges-of-rank/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_N..._rank_insignia
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/training...branch-badges/
Regards
WF
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  #6  
Old 19-06-09, 04:20 PM
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Thanks WF, Just proves that there is no standard out there now, What do you know about WW2 era ? Something tells me it wouldn't do to put a KC button on that wide commodore slip on.
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Old 19-06-09, 10:55 PM
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Hi Ray
Not quite sure what you mean, slip ons didn't have buttons, the coats and shirts did though.
In general the only change, without going into ratings ranks, would be the the Kings Crown for WWII opposed to the Queens Crown today.
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Old 20-06-09, 08:09 PM
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Default Flag Officer lace

Ray I dont wish to be obtuse but the term Fleet rank is incorrect - the correct terminology is FLAG rank -- why? a Flag officer was entitled to wear his flag & he hoisted it upon taking up his appointment & hauled it down opon the termination of his appointment.

However, here is lace specs from RN Dress Regulations, the only two I have -

1893 -

Flag Officers & Commodores 1st cl: "A band of 1 3/4" lace round the cuffs, with rows of 5/8" lace round the sleeve according to rank"

Commodore 2nd cl: A band of 1 3/4" lace round the cuffs & a circle 1 3/4" in diameter formed of 1/2" lace above it."

Captains to Chief Gunner/Boatswain etc: Row(s) of 1/2" lace.

Warrant Officers over 10 yrs seniority: 1/4" lace.

1924 -

Flag Officers & Commodores 1st cl: "A band of 1 3/4" lace round the cuffs, with rows of 1/2" lace round the sleeve according to rank"

Commodore 2nd cl: A band of 1 3/4" lace round the cuffs & a circle 1 3/4" in diameter formed of 1/2" lace above it."

Captains to Chief Gunner/Boatswain etc: Row(s) of 1/2" lace.

Warrant Officers : 1/4" lace.


Cannot help you with 'slip ons' as I dont collect them but I do know they are modern, dont know exactly when they came in but I am guestimating the '70's.

Can confirm WFrad's comment that there were variations in lace widths over time frames, especially in WWII when many contractors & tailors were employed making them, due to huge increase in both RN & RCN officer complement. One sees many variants of RNR/RCNR & RNVR/RCNVR lace.

Bryan

Last edited by RCN; 20-06-09 at 08:15 PM.
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  #9  
Old 20-06-09, 08:12 PM
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Default Commodore lace

Here is example of an actual Commodore sleeve lace showing how the circle above the wide lace is entirely separate from the lace.

& would be same on shoulder boards.

Bryan
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Old 20-06-09, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boots and saddles View Post
Thanks WF, Just proves that there is no standard out there now, What do you know about WW2 era ? Something tells me it wouldn't do to put a KC button on that wide commodore slip on.
I have never seen buttons on the modern 'slips ons' Ray.
You see these frequently on ebay.

Bryan
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Old 20-06-09, 08:20 PM
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Default Flag Officer sleeve lace

Perhaps a little off topic but nice 'aside' to add I think --- illustrated below is a photo of (then) Vice Admiral Beresford wearing the short lived "oak leaf" wide band below the upper narrow bands, but with a very thin band of lace above the oak leaves. This "oak leaf" band was worn briefly from 1901 to 1903. Note how it matches his collar & belt.

Actually I think it looked very smart.

Bryan
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File Type: jpg Flagsleeve lace oak.jpg (56.1 KB, 12 views)

Last edited by RCN; 20-06-09 at 08:22 PM. Reason: .
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  #12  
Old 20-06-09, 08:56 PM
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Bryan, just to add to what you have said,
The rank 'Mate' that sometimes get confused with Warrant and Petty Officer grades.
The title Mate was given to an officer who was commissioned from the lower deck and ranked with a Sub-Lieutenant.
From 1912 to 1931 rank braid was one 1/2" band.
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Old 20-06-09, 09:09 PM
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Around the same period the Army introduced a new rank system which had an even shorter shelf life, athough authorised I believe it was never worn.
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.p...j0mxbv&thumb=4
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Old 20-06-09, 11:56 PM
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Yes the rank of Mate was introduced in 1912. I have the medals to a Mate who was of the first group of Mates commissioned in '13.

His SR reads -- " (HMS) Excellent & Vernon to qualify for Acting Mate - 30 Oct '12." He was commissioned as Acting Mate 7 May '13 & went onto command submarines in WWI & post war.

The lace insignia for Mate was identical to Sub Lieut.
I dont have a photo of him wearing the single band of lace but I do have after he was promoted to Lieut, Sep '15, but the sleeve insignia is dark & not very clear.

Bryan
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Old 21-06-09, 12:46 AM
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That's a smart uniform , No wonder these fellows had batmen.
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