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  #31  
Old 20-01-20, 06:01 AM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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Thanks Frank, you have confirmed what I suspected. The unfortunate thing is I bought mine here on the forum some years ago.
Cheers,
Alex
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  #32  
Old 21-01-20, 01:40 PM
actionoke actionoke is offline
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WONDERFUL conversation chaps, but I am trying to sell a badge here ....ADMIN please lay down the law here...or delete this posting and I will take the badge elsewhere.
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  #33  
Old 21-01-20, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post

The lugs have certainly been added, almost certainly after the obverse had been messed with, it certainly does not match the reverse, which appears not to have been subject to the same level of attention, although, has received some, notwithstanding, I would be quite surprised to see any significant discolouration from a little bit of lead.
I agree the loops have been added after it’s been ‘messed with’. I maintain that those replacement loops wouldn’t have survived in or on the ground for 90 odd years. This has not been explained re the provenance aspect.

Whilst I wouldn’t expect solder to discolour brass I would expect the circa 180*C melting point of solder affect the colour of the surface staining/corrosion now covering the badge at the edges of the spill.

Also why is there no scar or mark of any kind apparent where the north loop should have been???

Re my Cheshire’s badge. Yes I agree it’s old and looks promising, but, it could be a +120 year old Fox restrike. I would not sell it as an original unless it was authenticated by Bosley’s or an authority of PT GGs.

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Originally Posted by actionoke View Post
WONDERFUL conversation chaps, but I am trying to sell a badge here ....ADMIN please lay down the law here...or delete this posting and I will take the badge elsewhere.
Actionoke - this thread has been viewed just shy of 1,700 times. Considerably more than most in the classifieds and the title and OP are very clear. I feel a debate needs to be had around this badge as many on here automatically assume badges for sale in this section are genuine because of the rules, that is not the case with this item. And yes personal opinion is the mods should step in. I think the badge is likely a repro.
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  #34  
Old 21-01-20, 07:53 PM
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Well, those loops have certainly not been added before the badge was messed with and therefore they certainly have not been on the veldt for ninety years.
I would be quite surprised if that amount of lead had left any significant mark, depending upon it's temperature at the time it was actually applied, in particular, after the period of time suggested had elapsed.
Regarding the upper loop, I certainly noted in my original post elsewhere, that any evidence may well have been deliberated removed., that is not to say the badge is original.

I think, again, solely from the photographs, your Cheshire's is original, it does not look like a copy.

With this thread, to be quite honest, I think it has run it's course and I fail to see how it can go further, I'd be amazed if anyone would pay five hundred quid for the remains of a badge that has proved impossible to verify from the photographs, the obverse is awful, I certainly would not consider it and that really does open up the issue of why is being offered here, in the first place?



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Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
I agree the loops have been added after it’s been ‘messed with’. I maintain that those replacement loops wouldn’t have survived in or on the ground for 90 odd years. This has not been explained re the provenance aspect.

Whilst I wouldn’t expect solder to discolour brass I would expect the circa 180*C melting point of solder affect the colour of the surface staining/corrosion now covering the badge at the edges of the spill.

Also why is there no scar or mark of any kind apparent where the north loop should have been???

Re my Cheshire’s badge. Yes I agree it’s old and looks promising, but, it could be a +120 year old Fox restrike. I would not sell it as an original unless it was authenticated by Bosley’s or an authority of PT GGs.



Actionoke - this thread has been viewed just shy of 1,700 times. Considerably more than most in the classifieds and the title and OP are very clear. I feel a debate needs to be had around this badge as many on here automatically assume badges for sale in this section are genuine because of the rules, that is not the case with this item. And yes personal opinion is the mods should step in. I think the badge is likely a repro.
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  #35  
Old 21-01-20, 08:17 PM
49lassiepen 49lassiepen is offline
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David

Last edited by 49lassiepen; 21-01-20 at 09:10 PM.
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  #36  
Old 22-01-20, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by actionoke View Post
WONDERFUL conversation chaps, but I am trying to sell a badge here ....ADMIN please lay down the law here...or delete this posting and I will take the badge elsewhere.
Fascinating! You're trying to sell a badge that hasn't been authenticated as genuine or having been at Isandlwana. You yourself didn't know whether it was genuine.
I think the mods should step in and remove the listing until it's proven the badge is genuine.
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  #37  
Old 22-01-20, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
Well, those loops have certainly not been added before the badge was messed with and therefore they certainly have not been on the veldt for ninety years.
I would be quite surprised if that amount of lead had left any significant mark, depending upon it's temperature at the time it was actually applied, in particular, after the period of time suggested had elapsed.
Regarding the upper loop, I certainly noted in my original post elsewhere, that any evidence may well have been deliberated removed., that is not to say the badge is original.

I think, again, solely from the photographs, your Cheshire's is original, it does not look like a copy.

With this thread, to be quite honest, I think it has run it's course and I fail to see how it can go further, I'd be amazed if anyone would pay five hundred quid for the remains of a badge that has proved impossible to verify from the photographs, the obverse is awful, I certainly would not consider it and that really does open up the issue of why is being offered here, in the first place?
Yes it raises a quandary I feel.

If these were added pre ‘cleaning’ I too don’t see how they would have survived on the veldt for any period of time, certainly not 90 years. Especially considering the battering the crown’s taken. And they certainly wouldn’t still be black after it was ‘cleaned’. Ergo it cannot have been found where/as stated.

Alternatively.

If added after its been found/‘cleaned’ (i.e. post 1969) then 1. why are the loops toned/stained black? 2. I would expect to see some discolouration around the solder as the verdigris/tarnish will have oxidised or melted. But rather it all looks a bit uniform like an artificial stain potentially that’s been done after the loops were added. 3. how/why was this repair not mentioned with the ‘provenance’.

Either option raises serious doubts as to the provenance.

I agree. The thread has run its course, the seller has shown nothing to dispel the doubts. Clearly the seller is only interested 550 things plus postage. I’m amazed this badge was allowed to be offered on here.
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  #38  
Old 23-01-20, 09:09 PM
actionoke actionoke is offline
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No you are so wrong and so self righteous ....again I will state it here because you eggspert are not understanding it.This badge was found in a collection of ground dug items recovered from Isandlwana in the 1969-1970 s.I know who its from and I know how I found it ...I never dug it up myself or faked it ..its as it is found in the lots (which I placed some of the items here).You just ignore that info to suit yourselves.I believe it to be genuine and put it on this forum for others to say what they thought.I also got hold of Ian Knight and he also said it was good.I then put it here for sale as some members get upset if one does not offer items here first before other sites like EBAY. I still believe its good.Nothing said here as speculation convinces me otherwise.
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  #39  
Old 23-01-20, 09:15 PM
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lifeochil lifeochil is offline
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All very good points and questions. Let's hope the questions are answered.
I have two questions.
1/ is the seller offering a 30 day money back guarantee on the item?
2/ if the item is sold on this forum and the badge is proven to not be genuine how much is it the responsibility of the owners and moderators to allow it to be sold here?
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  #40  
Old 23-01-20, 09:30 PM
grumpy grumpy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeochil View Post
All very good points and questions. Let's hope the questions are answered.
I have two questions.
1/ is the seller offering a 30 day money back guarantee on the item?
2/ if the item is sold on this forum and the badge is proven to not be genuine how much is it the responsibility of the owners and moderators to allow it to be sold here?
In view of all the above especially the prospective seller's caveats, surely caveat emptor applies?
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  #41  
Old 23-01-20, 10:00 PM
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Fatherofthree Fatherofthree is offline
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I have followed this thread with some interest, in no way shape or form do I profess any depth of knowledge in relation to these particular badges.

However, having read what some very knowledgeable members have expressed, I agree that this is in all probability, not a genuine item

In your last post you stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by actionoke View Post
.This badge was found in a collection of ground dug items recovered from Isandlwana in the 1969-1970 s.
Well there you are, evidence in itself: IT WAS FOUND IN A COLLECTION.

Nothing to provide any evidence that this particular badge was dug from the soil, nor that it is a genuine period item.

It was probably added to the GROUND DUG collection at some stage.

Regards

Brian
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  #42  
Old 23-01-20, 10:00 PM
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Luke H Luke H is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by actionoke View Post
No you are so wrong and so self righteous ....again I will state it here because you eggspert are not understanding it.This badge was found in a collection of ground dug items recovered from Isandlwana in the 1969-1970 s.I know who its from and I know how I found it ...I never dug it up myself or faked it ..its as it is found in the lots (which I placed some of the items here).You just ignore that info to suit yourselves.I believe it to be genuine and put it on this forum for others to say what they thought.I also got hold of Ian Knight and he also said it was good.I then put it here for sale as some members get upset if one does not offer items here first before other sites like EBAY. I still believe its good.Nothing said here as speculation convinces me otherwise.
So you’ve asked for opinions. Not liked what you’ve heard and are choosing to ignore them.

Ian Knight is an historian not a badge expert.

I’m no expert but I do feel you badly need an expert to give this badge the credence you wish it to have. As suggested earlier why don’t you send pictures of it, the letters and supposed provenance to Bosley’s and see what they say? I strongly suspect you would not like their answer however.

One of the items in the collection you showed to back up this badge has a tag saying it was found near Fort Tullichewan (Pretoria) which is 450km from Isandlwana. Where is the note accompanying the badge?

As General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett, VC, KCB, DSO once said ‘‘If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.’’
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  #43  
Old 24-01-20, 01:55 AM
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General Melchett's medal entitlements appear to be:

Victoria Cross (VC)
Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath (KCB)
Distinguished Service Order (DSO)
South Africa Medal 1868-1880 (Zulu War)
Afghanistan Medal 1877-1880
Ashantee Medal 1872-1875 [out of sequence]
Egypt Medal 1880-1890
Khedive's Star [out of sequence]
India General Service Medal 1854-1895
Queen's South Africa Medal 1899-1902,
King's South Africa Medal 1901-1902
India General Service Medal 1908-1913
1914-1915 Star.

But I can find no such reference to these gallantry awards in the London Gazette. I think it is highly unlikely these are genuine awards.

That is the link to this thread - highly unlikely to be genuine, cheers Dean
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  #44  
Old 24-01-20, 09:11 AM
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Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
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Well, I think you have managed to confuse the definition of being "self righteous" with that of having an enquiring mind, which is a great shame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by actionoke View Post
No you are so wrong and so self righteous ....again I will state it here because you eggspert are not understanding it.This badge was found in a collection of ground dug items recovered from Isandlwana in the 1969-1970 s.I know who its from and I know how I found it ...I never dug it up myself or faked it ..its as it is found in the lots (which I placed some of the items here).You just ignore that info to suit yourselves.I believe it to be genuine and put it on this forum for others to say what they thought.I also got hold of Ian Knight and he also said it was good.I then put it here for sale as some members get upset if one does not offer items here first before other sites like EBAY. I still believe its good.Nothing said here as speculation convinces me otherwise.
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  #45  
Old 24-01-20, 09:27 AM
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Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
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Ashantee medal was 1873-1874
South Africa war medal was 1877-1879
Afghanistan medal was 1878-1880
Egypt and Sudan medal was 1882-1889
IGS was 1908-1935

Notwithstanding, General Cecil had clearly been very busy indeed.:eek



Quote:
Originally Posted by mooke07 View Post
General Melchett's medal entitlements appear to be:

Victoria Cross (VC)
Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath (KCB)
Distinguished Service Order (DSO)
South Africa Medal 1868-1880 (Zulu War)
Afghanistan Medal 1877-1880
Ashantee Medal 1872-1875 [out of sequence]
Egypt Medal 1880-1890
Khedive's Star [out of sequence]
India General Service Medal 1854-1895
Queen's South Africa Medal 1899-1902,
King's South Africa Medal 1901-1902
India General Service Medal 1908-1913
1914-1915 Star.

But I can find no such reference to these gallantry awards in the London Gazette. I think it is highly unlikely these are genuine awards.

That is the link to this thread - highly unlikely to be genuine, cheers Dean
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