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  #1  
Old 26-05-11, 06:24 AM
monty monty is offline
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Default Brass 17th Lancers Cap Badge

This came with some other bits about three years ago.At the time it had a very crude solder repair to the slider,Super age petina.The badge has been restored with a period slider.The surface has calmed down and starting to get back its nice colour.It is in my view an orignal example.It would be nice to have some feedback. monty
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  #2  
Old 26-05-11, 10:54 AM
Lancer 17 Lancer 17 is offline
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Smile Brass 17th Lancers MOTTO.

G'day Monty

First let me say that this is NOT a badge, the regiment Queens Royal Lancers, on their web site refer to it as a Motto. See other 17L threads on this subject.

Now to the Motto its self, yes it looks good to me, I have 2 brass Mottos, they have "ears" where as later Mottos do not, except for officers silver issues and the first white metal 1896 period issue which have lugs. I do not know of a white metal Mottos with ears and a slider.

I'd be happy with you Motto, its a real nice example and has been well repaired.

Regards

Phil.
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  #3  
Old 26-05-11, 11:21 AM
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fougasse1940 fougasse1940 is offline
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Why and when would brass mottoes have been worn?

Rgds,
Thomas.
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  #4  
Old 27-05-11, 05:50 PM
monty monty is offline
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Default 17 Lancers Brass Motto`s

Thats a good thing to ask.I was careful to avoid saying it was WW1 I think theres much speculation as to If this was the case.In truth I like most things have no idea.Its great that they call them motto`s for us mere mortal gravel bellys that just said badge it is a wonderful thing that these Cavalery units have this certain class.Back to being the ex Royal Hampshire for me with me badges.
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  #5  
Old 28-05-11, 03:39 PM
Lancer 17 Lancer 17 is offline
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Smile RE Brass 17th Lancers Motto.

Hi Monty

I should have said in my first post, however my understanding is that during WW1 OR's wore a brass Motto whilst the officrs wore a bronze Motto.

As I said previously the Circa 1896, first WM issue in both cap and field service cap sizes had "ears" and lugs, as do both the OSD Bz issue and the brass issue as shown in your post except it has a slider.

The WM issues after this with sliders do not have "ears", however later officers Silver issues do, as does the officers Circa 1984 gun metal issue.

I hope that this helps

Cheers

Phil.

PS Dont feel bad about not having a Motto !!
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  #6  
Old 28-05-11, 04:17 PM
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iaindh iaindh is offline
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Oh shame Monty, you really must get your badges and your mottos sorted out!!!
Dont worry, in my early days I got cacked on for saying the tank on an early Tank Corps badge was retreating and not withdrawing
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  #7  
Old 28-05-11, 05:22 PM
monty monty is offline
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Default 17th Lancer Motto

A big thanks for clearing it up,About the period etc.Its always nice to learn somthing new,Shame they could not teach me to spell at School.No sleep lost about no motto.From the Grunt point of view I`m happy to have these Cavalry units on the planet.In my brief ocassions working alongside or near them they had style.Cheers monty
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  #8  
Old 13-07-11, 11:44 AM
Alan Y Alan Y is offline
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Hello all,

Apologies for hijacking the thread, but a very interesting topic. I came across this thread while checking a white metal Motto I have which has all the signs of a copy, mark in right eye socket, fault lines on forehead, lugs etc. I then realised I’d had this for a while and thought it might relate to the brass 17th Lancers Motto or a bronze finished brass Motto which I’ve read before but cannot find at the moment.
The slider is marked Firmin London.

Thanks in advance Alan Y.

17th Motto 1.JPG 17th Motto 2.JPG 17th Motto 3.JPG 17th Motto 4.JPG
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  #9  
Old 14-07-11, 01:32 AM
Lancer 17 Lancer 17 is offline
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Smile Re Brass 17th Lancers Motto.

G'day Alan

Thanks for posting photos of your motto, it looks good to me and has ears as do the 2 brass mottos that l have which l believe are WW1 issue, however neither of mine have a makers name on the slider. There was mention of a white metal motto on a previous thread with a Firmin slider.

Id say its a good un and gives us all something else to look out for.

Regards

Phil.
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  #10  
Old 14-07-11, 08:37 AM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Default All GM WW1 Period Cavalry ORs Cap Badges and Mottos

It seems that the Cavalry did not comply with the directive issued for Infantry badges in that badges previously made in all Whitemetal were not to be struck in all Gilding metal (Brass), this Motto looks 100% kosher to me and I also have an all Gm 9th Lancers which is certainly genuine! I shall have to put together an album of Cav WW1 all Gm badges to compliment my Infantry album?

Andy
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  #11  
Old 14-07-11, 10:29 AM
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Alan O Alan O is offline
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I am uneasy about it. First of all it goes against the all-brass rule. However it is quite possibel that this was an exception/maker's error or was commissioned by the regt for wear on an order of dress. If it was blackened brass then it could be for a variety of reasons even for wear in tropical headgear or a wartime affection.

However my main concern is that the Firmin mark is unheard of on ORs badge before 1940s/50s.

Alan
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  #12  
Old 14-07-11, 11:47 AM
Alan Y Alan Y is offline
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Thanks Phil, Andy and Alan,

I’m delighted that the Motto appears to be a good one, which was my main concern. I’m sure an Album of GM WW1 Cavalry would be a great reference source.

I found the thread I referred to in my post above, started by davec2 ‘Economy Badges’ 17-01-09.
Alan, among your replies was the following passage which caught my attention and was mainly the reason I added my images:

“As far as replacing white metal badges with all brass goes, the records clearly state (and there is a picture on the forum of the record in question) that 'all white metal badges are to be left as is'. namely they were not to be made in all brass but continued to be made in w/m. This does raise questions about the 2 Lancer badges but I think that the 17th lancers badge was made for the regt in bronzed brass (ie all brass with a dark bronze coating) not as an economy measure but as a regtl desire to have a Bronzed Ors badge on some order of dress.”

When I first received my Motto I was very wary of it as it looked as if it had been coated or even painted with a darker finish. The brass or GM below is very obvious on the high points where it has worn away and I wondered if it was an applied finish either at manufacture, or done by an individual in the Regiment or even at a later date. I do not think it is an accumulation of patination and actually looks like it was meant to be a different finish to the brass below it.
I would be quite happy to go along with your theory here as this badge does look like it has been coated, which I have never seen on any other Economy badge on Forum images.
I’m still learning a lot about Economy badges by reading past threads and realise how contentious they can be. This also applies to Makers Named badges I suppose, and I was not aware that OR’s badges were not made by Firmin pre 1940’s or 50’s, so that’s a great bit of information. I have learnt so many things since I joined the Forum last year. I look forward to finding out a bit more about it and I’m sure it will raise further points and I apologise again for hijacking the original thread.

Thanks again to you all for your replies,
Regards Alan Y.
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  #13  
Old 14-07-11, 03:22 PM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Alan O,

I was refering to the Motto shown at the start of the thread and not the Firmin marked badge.

I've a feeling Firmin were making badges prior to the 40/50s but did not maker mark them? Genuine Cavalry economy badges are quite scarce and have been heavily copied, many such copies being sold at auction for considerable amounts! When compared to the genuine item thay can be told apart but the fakers have gone to great lengths with the slider shape and patina.

Andy

Last edited by 2747andy; 14-07-11 at 04:23 PM.
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  #14  
Old 14-07-11, 06:20 PM
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The only cap ‘motto’ for the 17th lancers recorded by the RACD was sealed in June 1898 as a WM Death’s Head etc – these were an average size of 39 x 45mm, though slightly smaller ones are known. I assume there are manufacturer’s variations. At the same time a WM collar badge was sealed and these are an average of 23x30mm with NS lugs.
BUT there are also GM collar badges at an average of 26.5x30mm with EW lugs.
I’m not sure of the date of these but there is no mention of GM cap mottos.
There is a very large WO tender for cap badges dated April 1916 which includes many “all GM” versions. Unfortunately there are very few cavalry ones – and none for 17 L !!

I have my own opinions about a GM 17L - but I hope this information is of some help.
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  #15  
Old 14-07-11, 10:18 PM
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spreadeagle spreadeagle is offline
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Default GM / Brass 17h Lrs

The fact that the slider has been replaced is a bit suspicious.
There were very solid and convincing examples of GM and brass "Motto's" produced in the late 1970's ,and early 80's,with both loops and vertical shanks.The latter had a wide tapered shank,and had none of the usual tells of the modern copies.
Snap the it off,replace with a conventional WW1 style shank ,and hey presto,a long lost economy pattern.
Why? There's no economy replacing like for like.
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