Unknown British Police Insignia?

[Michael L]

I joined a few months ago and have come across some items I could really use some help identifying. I believe the wheel with the King's crown above it was used by the Metropolitan Police. I do not however, know when or exactly how it was used. The star and portcullis are a mystery to me but believed to be British police. I understand RCMP use a similar star in gold signifying five years of service. Can anyone assist with any details regarding by whom and when these were used?

- Michael

[Phil2M]

Thr portcullis is almost certainly HM Revenue and Customs related but at present I cant look it up for you to be more accurate.

Phil

[Michael L]

Thank you, Phil. That does look promising for the portcullis. I will keep searching.

-Michael

[altcar73]

The portcullis was used by the former HM Customs & Excise. However, it was usually surmounted by the Sovereigns Crown. It is also used as an emblem by the House of Commons (UK Parliament), but surmounted by a small Coronet. So, could be connected with either.

The wheel and Crown was worn by members of the Metropolitan Special Constabulary as an arm badge signifying the wearer to be a driver.

The star could either be a rank badge worn by the Metropolitan Police or it would be worn by some UK Police Forces on the forearm to signify that the wearer has a merit award or to indicate long service.

I hope this is helpful.

Dave.

[Michael L]

Thank you very much, Dave. This is most helpful.

-Michael

[Gurkha]

Star was not worn by the Met, normal WM pips were used.
Steve M

[Michael L]

Thank you for the information on the star, Steve. Do you know which force(s) used the star or possibly when?

- Michael

[altcar73]

Originally Posted by Gurkha

Star was not worn by the Met, normal WM pips were used.
Steve M

Steve,

I don't quite know where you get this information from but I'm afraid you are wrong. Pips (Bath stars) were and are worn by the Met. but prior to that Bullion and white metal stars were utilised dependant upon rank. A comprehensive unpublished written survey of Metpol. uniform and insignia was produced several years ago by N.W.H. Fairfax (Metropolitan Police Civilian Staff) and V.L.H. Wilkinson (Chief Superintendent, Metropolitan Police). As I say, the manuscript was unpublished. However, the Metpol. Historical Society may allow you to purchase a copy from them if you ask. If you wish to see some photographic evidence of my assertion, let me know.

Dave.

[Michael L]

Thank you again, Dave. Thank you also for the manuscript information as i will look into getting a copy, if possible.

- Michael

[altcar73]

Michael,

I am attaching a photo of a Metropolitan Police Inspector taken in the late 1920's. as you can see he is wearing two stars on his collar as a rank badge. This star is in white metal. Superintending ranks and above utilised the same design star but in silver bullion wire, similar to the one you have. I hope this is helpful. I do wish people would not jump in on these threads and make bold statements of fact without some evidence. I don't have a problem with "I think", "maybe", "in my opinion" or similar but to say, "The star is not worn by the Met..........", without qualifying it with evidence is just misleading to those interested viewers and indeed yourself. As an aside, the sword belt continued to be worn by Metropolitan Police Senior Officers on their No:1 (Ceremonial Uniform) for many years after dropping it from everyday wear. The last occasion it was worn (and Ceremonial uniforms generally) was on Remembrance Sunday 1972.

Best wishes, Dave.

[Gurkha]

Thanks for the photo dave.
My statement was made based on over 30 years collecting met stuff and handling met items from victorian times onwards, and serving + helping aquire items for the Bow street Museum + knowing Vic who purchased my collection. I'm happy to acknowledge when I'm wrong but no need for the snide remark. I'm always happy to try to help members. Also I aquired and passed on a Inspectors 1919 dated No1 uniform with sword belt and parade helmet, working tunic & cap from the family, both tunic rank badges were Pips not stars. So it wasnt just a wild guess but based on my my experience. I am always happy to learn.
What makes you think the officer in the photo is a met officer?
regards
Steve

[altcar73]

Originally Posted by Gurkha

Thanks for the photo dave.
My statement was made based on over 30 years collecting met stuff and handling met items from victorian times onwards, and serving + helping aquire items for the Bow street Museum + knowing Vic who purchased my collection. I'm happy to acknowledge when I'm wrong but no need for the snide remark. I'm always happy to try to help members. Also I aquired and passed on a Inspectors 1919 dated No1 uniform with sword belt and parade helmet, working tunic & cap from the family, both tunic rank badges were Pips not stars. So it wasnt just a wild guess but based on my my experience. I am always happy to learn.
What makes you think the officer in the photo is a met officer?
regards
Steve

Because his cap badge reads "Metropolitan Police"

Dave.

[Gurkha]

Wow, your eyesight is amazing, the badge on the scan is unreadable, how big is the actual picture? it looks post card size?

regards
Steve

[Gurkha]

Joking apart,
that is a really nice picture, it clearly shows the No1 tunic with the braid on collar and cuffs. The same as the 1919 one I had, why do you think the buttons are subdued, we know they were white metal, but the medal, cap badge, and stars show out fine, they almost look GM or unpolished?
Have you checked to see when the photographer was trading from that address? Gut feeling is, could this be earlier than 30's 1910 ish maybe? Anything on the back?

regards
Steve.

[altcar73]

Steve,

The photo is a CDV. Photographer is shown on the bottom "W.A.Brown & Son, 146/8 Camberwell Road, SE5". Looking through a loope you can see the wording on the cap badge and the cipher GVR. In fact you can even make out the design of the buttons. According to Fairfax/Wilkinson, the "star" design cap badge was introduced for Inspectorate ranks in 1920. It replaced the King's Crown "garter" cap badge with the GVR centre. On the cap itself the "oakleaf" band was replaced by one of mohair braid.

It goes on to say that in 1921 Superintendent & Inspectorate ranks replaced their embroidered rank badges with metal, ranks changed as follows:-

Sub-Divisional Inspectors - Two stars.
Inspectors - One star.

So it would seem that the gent in the photo is a Sub-Divisional Inspector. I suspect that the location of the photographer would give a clue to his Division. There is nothing marked on the reverse of the photo. I can't explain why his buttons are black.

Dave.