British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > Common Forums > Reproductions, Restrikes, Fakes, Forgeries, and Copies

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 23-02-19, 08:00 PM
CAM's Avatar
CAM CAM is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Farnborough, Hampshire
Posts: 1,217
Default Unvoided Crowns

Reading two threads in particular recently, made me think more about the subject of restrikes, copies and fakes, in relation to voided and non-voided crowns.

There is one school of thought that states unvoided badges of any sort are ‘not right’ and others who argue that due to demand, especially during the rapid expansion of the ‘war years’, standards and monitoring were lax.

I have seen die cast and die stamped / struck versions where:
• the crown is voided and other parts of the badge which should be are not.
• the crown is unvoided and other parts of the badge are.
• all parts of the badge are voided.
• all parts of the badge are unvoided.

This does not take into account:
• where some badges having the GVR are very poorly mounted.
• where some badges are well voided but ‘unfinished’ rear faces – e.g. sharp and jagged.
• flawed makers’ marks.

I think it was Alan O, who commented on one thread that none of the sealed patterns have unvoided crowns, which is a good start. If there are genuine unvoided crowns, then using other tell-tale signs would help.

I have had several badges in the past with unvoided crowns, some of which seemed reasonable, others have been obvious copies / restrikes. I have recently picked up a couple that appear so bad that nobody could possibly have copied them and thought they could pass as genuine...which begs the question!

As I was thinking about writing this thread, I noticed at least 3 x Brass Royal Devon Yeomanry Cap Badges on eBay, where the even the main crown is unvoided. To me, these seem ‘strange’ to say the least, underlying the question of the thread.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROYAL-DEV...53.m1438.l2649

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-R...53.m1438.l2649

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-B...53.m1438.l2649

Also, there is this.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Military-....c100009.m1982

Is there a list of known unvoided crowns or a list of badges that were always voided?

If people reply to this question, I could compile a list and post it for all.

Looking forward to responses.

Chris
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 23-02-19, 08:03 PM
manchesters's Avatar
manchesters manchesters is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 7,572
Default

The first 3 links are all FAKE, one seller in particular well known for it.

The voided one looks OK.

regards
__________________
Simon Butterworth

Manchester Regiment Collector
Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 23-02-19, 08:42 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,910
Default

Not quite sure what the main question is here as it drifts slightly.

If it’s are there genuine badges with un-voided crowns, undoubtedly yes. I own a Suffolk Regt and Finsbury Rifles with solid crown that I have no doubts about.

Are the 3 badges shown in the link genuine - no. They’re fakes from a very poor Royal 1st Devon Yeomanry fake die, nothing like the original (thankfully).

In this thread badges shown in the literature to the above Yeomanry https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...Devon+Yeomanry (Gaylor, K&K and Litchfield) all show examples where one of the lions hind legs touches the crown tip i.e. there is no void. It’s general consensus that looped/bladed badges of this design but with the aforementioned void are staff officer badges.

As for the badge in the fourth link see post #13 of the above thread. There are a couple badges from the same die, both have modern looking sliders - not what I’d expect from a Yeomanry that didn’t survive past 1920. Personally I don’t think it’s a genuine 1stRDY (due to the void) and not a badge I’d have in my collection.

Unfortunately I don’t know of any lists of relating to crowns and their voids. One thing I would say is for me it’s a subject where ‘never say never’ since one off mistakes could always have slipped through. For example I’ve a Conn. Rangers missing a single string void, it’s undoubtedly been worn and made it through quality control and been issued.

Last edited by Luke H; 23-02-19 at 08:53 PM. Reason: Spelling
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 23-02-19, 10:14 PM
grey_green_acorn's Avatar
grey_green_acorn grey_green_acorn is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kent, UK
Posts: 5,821
Default

Chris,
The alleged Royal Devon Yeomanry badges in the links are of the type worn in the TV 'reality' show Lads Army / Bad Lads Army screened in the early 2000s.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0417301/

Tim
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg image.jpeg (42.4 KB, 55 views)
__________________
"Manui dat cognitio vires - Knowledge gives strength to the arm"
"Better to know it but not need it than to need it and not know it!"
"Have more than thou showest, speak less than thou knowest."
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 24-02-19, 01:15 AM
fougasse1940's Avatar
fougasse1940 fougasse1940 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,206
Default

Is this thread about crowns in general or just the Royal 1st Devon Yeomanry?
Generally speaking there could be makers variations, WW 1 economy badges, officers fretted or not etc., etc..

Rgds, Thomas
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 24-02-19, 09:24 PM
CAM's Avatar
CAM CAM is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Farnborough, Hampshire
Posts: 1,217
Default

Thanks for the comments.

It was about crowns in general. I coincidentally happened to see those links at the the same time and thought they looked odd. However the link that Luke attached shows the actual design is correct. As Tim pointed out they were also used as 'props'.

This appears to be a minefield. I may just climb back into my box.

Chris

Last edited by CAM; 24-02-19 at 09:25 PM. Reason: typo
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 25-02-19, 05:56 PM
KLR's Avatar
KLR KLR is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Posts: 3,055
Default

This documentation at TNA dated 1901 might help !
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0659.jpg (63.0 KB, 50 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0660.jpg (60.7 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0661.jpg (54.5 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0662.jpg (51.6 KB, 26 views)

Last edited by Alan O; 25-02-19 at 06:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 25-02-19, 10:11 PM
CAM's Avatar
CAM CAM is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Farnborough, Hampshire
Posts: 1,217
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KLR View Post
This documentation at TNA dated 1901 might help !
Thank you I shall read through.

Chris
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 25-02-19, 10:19 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 5,910
Default

Hi Julian,

Is there a typed transcript of the above? I find it a bugger to read plus there’s a lot of it.

Cheers,

Luke
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 26-02-19, 12:54 PM
KLR's Avatar
KLR KLR is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Posts: 3,055
Default

Luke, help yourself !
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:51 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.