Pips and Crowns re-instated

[servicepub]

Originally Posted by highlandas

I am all for for the pips and crown. Long time coming back. I'm just not sure how I feel about the General officer's losing the maple leafs. Maybe a gold braid like the G.G. but with maple leaves. I always felt that the maple leaves were a Cdn twist to the US General stars. Another thought, sub maple leaf for the crown on general officers.

Just putting it out there. I'm sure that there will be other thoughts, , however I definitely don't move in the right circles.

Chris

Generals' rank devices do not change.
C

[Phillip Herring]

Regarding all of the comments, I am reminded of a co-worker's reply to one of my many gripes - "Greater minds than yours have decided otherwise."

Phil

[Bill A]

Originally Posted by Bill A

And a bit of historical inaccuracy:

Canadian Army Secondary Badge

The new Canadian Army secondary badge is based on the historical Canadian Army badge used during and after the Second World War. It features the crossed swords, overlaid by three maple leaves conjoined on one stem. A crown is placed atop the maple leaves. The secondary badge will be displayed on the Canadian Army ensign and pocket badge.

The tri-leaf badge used as a general list badge was not in use during the Second World War, (at least as a cap badge).

Came across documentation held at DHH about the Canadian army badge. The sword / maple leaf design was not authorized until 1947. Even then it was not widely adopted for use. In 1952 it came to the attention of AHQ that the badge had not been followed through on. It was then taken into general use. It formed the basis for the "general list" badge but in queen's crown.

[colin 17]

Its interesting to see the blowback on other websites and talking to other soldiers about this and how much they dont like this. It also comes at a bad time with all the job cuts, including mine, that guys are wondering why they want to spend the money on this. I have yet to talk to an officer who likes this change. Personally it dosnt make any difference to me and it does seem like it might save some tailoring costs down the road but its going to be fun watching all the missed salutes!

[MCG]

I fully understand the complaint of soldiers who are unhappy seeing this come to pass. The change is unnecessary, unwanted, unhelpful, wasteful, and occasionally supported under an insulting message.

The world over (universally amongst our NATO allies but with some exceptions external to the alliance) military ranks are distinct to a nation and they often contain imagery and symbolism of national pride. Just as a flag is linked with the identity of its nation, so too is the rank insignia and uniform of the military. The current common rank insignia is uniquely Canadian and it incorporates elements from the former services.

After nearly a half century of proud service, the current rank insignia is what current serving service personnel identify with. Referring to pips & crowns as our traditional rank is inaccurate – it is our historical rank, but our tradition has changed. Tradition is something that evolves, sometimes consciously, sometimes not, sometimes out of desire, and other times out of necessity. After two generations, the current tradition (the rank the Army now identifies with) is the current system of rank.

This is an important reality that must be accepted by those arguing that the move rights a wrong of unification because the opposite is in fact true; it repeats a wrong. In 1968 the government reached into the Army and, against the desire of most members and the expressed wishes of Army leadership, the in-place symbols of identity/rank were thrown out the window and new ones imposed. Today the government is reaching into the Army and, against the desire of most members and Army leadership, the in-place symbols of identity/rank are again being thrown out the window and new ones imposed. If it was wrong in 1968, it is wrong today.

Not only is the current rank now our tradition and change unwanted, the current rank insignia are more functional than the historical ranks. It facilitates communication across the environments because, even though service pers may not be able to name the rank, all CAF members can recognize the rank of any other CAF member. If you go into a coalition environment today, you will find a great mix of every nations’ army, navy, air force, marines and gendarmerie – our common CAF rank actually helps in this setting because our allies only have one rank system to learn. The idea that pips are an Army rank system and therefore pips & crowns will improve communication within a pure army coalition is balderdash – the British system of pips & crowns differs from the norm “on the continent” (and there is even variation amongst those nations). There are also a substantial number of allies who do not use any pips as ranks including USA, France, Romania, Bulgaria, Portugal, Slovania. In the end, the only way we will ever see a rank that truly improves recognition in a coalition environment will be if we successfully lobby for pan-NATO Joint rank insignia ... that notion is probably several bridges too far. Sticking closer to home, we could preserve the enhanced ability to communicate across environments which is provided by our current rank system.

Because the change is unwanted and unhelpful, the waste going into this really stands out. Renaming the CA, RCN and RCAF has already cost over $1 million as reported in the press. How much more will this cost to implement? I am not convinced this will eventually pay for itself either – instead of sewing a ribbon of rank onto just the officer uniforms, we will sew branch/corps/regimental identification tabs onto the sleeve shoulders of every member in the Army. How much will it cost to embroider pips and crowns onto the dress shirt slip-ons as opposed to sewing on the strip of ribbon? How will costs compare to embroider the more intricate pips & crowns onto operational clothing slip-ons as opposed to embroidering the simple bars now?

Unfortunately, one of the biggest wastes in this whole thing is not money but effort. For all the staff effort that will go into this in Ottawa, a person could probably have been found to instead push through a few minor equipment projects or help accelerate a major project to get soldiers operationally needed clothing or equipment. Or maybe this person could have updated some years out of date CFAOs on military careers and promotion (resulting in usefull improvements to how personnel progress through the ranks). When a decision is made on the design of the new ranks, that is going to take-up the purchasing time of a item and supply managers working for soldier systems in ADM(Mat) – that means these people will be postponing the buying of potentially more relevant soldier kit. In all the time that the MND and his staff spent discussing, planning, and presenting the various little bits of these silly aesthetic identity changes – what files were marking time? Where is the solution to the housing problem in Cold Lake? Where is the solution to the families that have lost tens of thousands because the housing markets were less than favourable when the CAF ordered a move? How many expenditures requiring ministerial approval time expired?

And if it wasn’t enough for this change to be unnecessary, unwanted, unhelpful, and wasteful – soldiers are treated with the additional (unintentional) slap in the face of being told this will restore lost pride. Lost Pride?! That very statement implies some lack or want of pride over the last decades. Go look an Afghan vet in the eyes and tell him “you guys lacked pride over there.” There was no shortage of pride amongst the guys fighting over there.

I am sorry if this message doesn’t sit well with those who are really happy to see the change, but that’s how it is. There are some serving members happy with this, but they are a small minority.

I will admit, authorizing the use of historical branch titles for the private rank was the right thing. As those rank titles continued to be used in practice, they remain a tradition that soldiers identify with. However, I would not see the NDA amended in Parliament just to add the missing ranks of Colour Sergeant and Ensign.


On a different but not unrelated topic, what will become of the “CANADA” shoulder tabs when the new cloth branch/regimental tabs replace the metal tabs and move from the epaulet to the shoulder of the sleeve? The media jumped all over the potential loss of maple leafs, but no mention of the possibility that the uniform will cease to mention the nation by name (and let’s face it, not on regiments contain “Canada” or “Canadian” within the name).

[shootemup]

I can tell you that all but one army officer I haven spoken to likes the change and feels it is long overdue. Sure the navy and air officers are complaining...suck it up boys. Granted the NCMs don't care one way or the other, but I'm sure the other cuts would be happening anyways, regardless of this initiative, especially to the annuitants.

[Skookum]

An the contrary, many of the Army NCMs from whom I have heard, and some officers, are very upset about the introduction of the pips and crowns, for the following reasons:

1. There are many more pressing and important issues to which the Canadian Army should be directing staff-hours and money. Things like replacing trucks; having enough boots to go around; buying ammunition; conducting training.

2. The repeated reference to restoring rank identifiers from our proud history belittles all of the proud accomplishments of the CA since 1968.

3. Virtually all of the soldiers in today's CA never had anything to do with pips and crowns. This is not their rank system.

4. Why be British (or be Canadian from 50 years ago)? Why not be the Canadians we are today?

5. And here is perhaps the biggest complaint, other than No. 1, above: The feeling is that this was forced onto the current serving members of the CA without any concern for their input or desire for the change. The feeling is that this was some pet project of long retired members and Honourary Colonels longing for the good old days when they served, without regard to the feelings of the actual serving members of the CA. If change is to be made to the uniform of the CA, it should be change sought (and prioritized) by the current members of the CA, not the wistful longings of those who once served.

[Phillip Herring]

Who is MGC?
Since I wasn't an officer and am no longer serving, the insignia makes no difference to me and as a taxpayer, my opinion really doesn't matter regardless of the party in power.
Given the strong feelings this topic has elicited, I like the thread just for the entertainment value.
I'm waiting (with baited breath) to see personal attacks followed by the thread being locked.

Phil

[Skookum]

I won't be engaging in personal attacks. I just wanted to make it clear that the pips and crown decision is not being greeted with universal high-fives across the CA, for the reasons I posted above.

[soldier1]

Originally Posted by Phillip Herring

Who is MGC?
Since I wasn't an officer and am no longer serving, the insignia makes no difference to me and as a taxpayer, my opinion really doesn't matter regardless of the party in power.
Given the strong feelings this topic has elicited, I like the thread just for the entertainment value.
I'm waiting (with baited breath) to see personal attacks followed by the thread being locked.

Phil

I must agree with you Phil. What irritates me is the people who join any forum and do not give any details of themselves in their profile. Who are they/no service details/ where they live etc; are they afraid of something?
Do they comment from experience etc or just 'spouting off'.
Cheers Al

[MCG]

Originally Posted by Phillip Herring

Who is MGC?

Alright, MCG has over 15 years Canadian Army service: some Reserve time, a lot more Reg F time, and all of it as combat Arms. He also has a couple tours including separate missions to Kandahar and Kabul. I hope that is enough information to move past discussing the messanger as opposed to the message.

[servicepub]

This forum is well-known for discussing and displaying badges. What it doesn't do (thank God) is get into the politics of these. I note that two new members (at the time of this message, both have only two posts) seem to be going down this road and this is excuseable as they may not be familiar with the purpose of this forum.
I posted the information as a 'heads up' on change and not to debate the pros and cons. Personally, I would like to see this thread closed and all political discussion on the 'good or bad' aspects moved to Army.ca where the 2 dozen bitter ex-NCMs, who seem to feel that they run the CAF, can bitch and whine about it.
Clive

[Bill A]

The original posting was about the introduction of new rank badges and their design. The discussion has drifted into the pros and cons and these have been aired. They will be left in the thread for reference.
Future posts to the thread should focus on the insignia, and not on the politics. We have no impact on the political decisions, and as collectors of material history the focus should be on the badges/insignia. Thanks.

[MCG]

I apologies for taking this in a direction not desired by the theme of the site. I saw a number of posts promoting the idea and suggesting that the current soldiers by-large are happy to see this. I only sought to balance that discussion with my view and the predominant view that I am hearing from current soldiers, from NCO up to Col. I understand now that we will stay away from arguing the merits for or against the decision.

I would like to come back to my question that does fit in the theme of dress and badges themselves. That is, what will happen to the CANADA label currently on Canadian uniforms when the new rank displaces corps/regt tabs from the epaulettes and the new cloth corps/regt tabs move to the shoulder of the sleeve? Will the CANADA badge become the new collectors' item?

[edstorey]

The CANADA badge is already a collectors item. With Combat, CF, Workdress, DEU, Garrison Dress and now CADPAT examples having been produced, there is already plenty of scope for a nice little collection.

Will the CANADA badge fade from use as a national identifier, I doubt it as between it and the flag badge, they serve as branding for the CAF.