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  #16  
Old 05-10-19, 02:28 PM
Gaznav Gaznav is offline
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PS. Sorry about the image sizes, but they link to other images on the web that I have no control over!
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  #17  
Old 05-10-19, 02:45 PM
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Deleted - wrong thread.
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  #18  
Old 05-10-19, 10:10 PM
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Well said. These are not brevets.
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  #19  
Old 06-10-19, 01:15 AM
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If a number of people who served and earned these 'flying badges' but refer to them as brevets, what would you possibly say to them?
That they should now call them flying badges because it's the correct terminology in the Queen's Regulations?
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  #20  
Old 08-10-19, 11:31 AM
Gaznav Gaznav is offline
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I was a wearer of the Navigator Flying Badge and I am now the wearer of the Weapon Systems Officer Flying Badge as a serving Flying Branch Wg Cdr - I also didn’t take issue when someone from the RAF Historical Society told me that the use of the word ‘Brevet’ was wrong. In fact the person who told me was a retired officer who was also the wearer of a Navigator Flying Badge.

If we get things wrong then we shouldn’t be too proud not to admit it and from then on get it right?
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  #21  
Old 13-10-19, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaznav View Post
I was a wearer of the Navigator Flying Badge and I am now the wearer of the Weapon Systems Officer Flying Badge as a serving Flying Branch Wg Cdr - I also didn’t take issue when someone from the RAF Historical Society told me that the use of the word ‘Brevet’ was wrong. In fact the person who told me was a retired officer who was also the wearer of a Navigator Flying Badge.

If we get things wrong then we shouldn’t be too proud not to admit it and from then on get it right?
'Badges of the Empire's Waggoners,' states 'Army Council Instruction 416 of the 9th October 1957 authorised the wearing of the Air Despatch brevet badge.'
It refers to the RASC Air Despatch brevet on a number of occasions as a brevet.
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  #22  
Old 13-10-19, 08:26 AM
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Why does AP1358 Chapter 7 use that word?

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Well said. These are not brevets.
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  #23  
Old 13-10-19, 08:37 AM
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A link to AP1358 and as Frank states in Chapter 7 it refers to both Flying Badges and Brevets.

https://rmhistorical.com/files/conte...egulations.pdf

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  #24  
Old 13-10-19, 08:58 AM
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As does the online site for The RAF Museum at Hendon.

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/researc...ots-wings.aspx

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  #25  
Old 13-10-19, 09:24 AM
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Super portrait of Freddy Sykes!


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Originally Posted by Hawthorn View Post
As does the online site for The RAF Museum at Hendon.

https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/researc...ots-wings.aspx

Simon
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  #26  
Old 13-10-19, 10:41 AM
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Throughout the history of the RAF the qualification badges for Aircrew have been called "Flying Badges". In all the dress regulations from 1st edition to the 5th edition this is the only term used. However the 6th edition does use the term "Brevet" when talking about the replacement of the Aircrew category badges and the introduction of the new Rear Crew badge. To quote;

"Note. With effect 1 Apr 03 the range of 5 aircrew brevets for rear crew personnel were replaced by the single rear crew brevet (see below). Those aircrew who were already qualified to wear old style individual brevets can opt to wear the new brevet or retain the old style but there will be no further provisioning of the current brevet.

Rear Aircrew Brevet.
The monogram ‘RAF’ in drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk, surmounted by a crown with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth. Introduced 1 Apr 03 to replace Navigator, Air Electronics Officer/Operator, Air Engineer and Air Loadmaster. (See Note Above)
".

Throughout my time in the service common parlance for these badges was "brevet", the term used by air and ground crew alike. It appears that the writer of the latest Dress Regs was used to that term and therefore used it in the AP. Bearing in mind that the re-written Regs would have had to be authorised at a high level it would seem that the word is now accepted as a description for these badges.
Dave
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  #27  
Old 13-10-19, 03:34 PM
grumpy grumpy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeochil View Post
If a number of people who served and earned these 'flying badges' but refer to them as brevets, what would you possibly say to them?
That they should now call them flying badges because it's the correct terminology in the Queen's Regulations?
Yes, of course if the conversation falls to their declaring that the badges are indeed brevets.

QRs, as amended by due authority, are the ultimate arbiter.

Last edited by grumpy; 13-10-19 at 07:40 PM. Reason: addendum
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  #28  
Old 14-10-19, 09:58 PM
Gaznav Gaznav is offline
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The error in AP1358 has been in for amendment for over a year on the following:

Quote:
Rear Aircrew Brevet. The monogram ‘RAF’ in drab silk surrounded by a laurel leaf of brown silk, surmounted by a crown with an outspread drab silk wing 2½" (6.35 cm) long – on dark blue melton cloth. Introduced 1 Apr 03 to replace Navigator, Air Electronics Officer/Operator, Air Engineer and Air Loadmaster. (See Note Above)".
It is the Weapon Systems Officer (WSO) and the Weapon Systems Operator (WSOp) Flying Badge - never “Rear Aircrew” (no such specialisation) or a “Brevet” as the higher-level QRs terms it is a “Flying Badge”. Although just like the errant word used for the Air Dispatchers the word has crept in through error in QRs for the Parachute Jump Instructor Flying Badge (as it is properly described in the King’s Order for it) - but then again they are only ‘honorary aircrew’ in name anyway!

There is a new version of AP1358 due out imminently as it is long overdue a rewrite.
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  #29  
Old 15-10-19, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaznav View Post
the word has crept in through error in QRs for the Parachute Jump Instructor Flying Badge (as it is properly described in the King’s Order for it) - but then again they are only ‘honorary aircrew’ in name anyway!
While the thread is referring to 'RAF,' the UK is not the only country that uses the word brevet for pilot's wings, PJI's etc. Being pedantic on not using that word and describing even PJI's brevets as flying badges won't make a difference. Many members of air forces from around the world won't change from using the word brevet just because it isn't in the KR's or the QR's because it doesn't apply to them.
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