Combined Ops insignia

[sailorbear]

Originally Posted by tynesideirish

There was no such beast as the Army or Navy commando course, it was just the Commando Basic Training Course at Achnacarry which was originally an adjunct of the Special Training Centre at Lochailort. For all Arms and all services.

As the use of Special Service 'troops' increased so did the volume of trainees and the 'Commando Course' was exported to other outposts. Too varied for a thread like this.

Modern day: There is now only the Commando training centre at Lympstone. Running Royals and All Arms courses.

Passing the Commando course earns the Green Beret, (and with Army all arms, the Cdo Qualification 'dagger' badge, which the Royals have taken to wearing as a TRF,) but it is not always universally worn. Depending on duty, postings and circumstance. RN commandos still seem to favour the Naval cap.

Now that you don't need to be RM to join the SB branch, there will be the strange cases of future ex SB without Green beret or Commando Qualification badge.

Got to disagree with you there! The Royal Navy did have its own Commando courses which were run at HMS Armadillo located in the village of Ardentinny on Loch Long opporsite Coulport, sailors who completed the course were then sent to Achnacarry to undergo a final toughening up course. On completion they were entitled to wear the green beret and RN Commando flash, though it would seem that the naval cap was usually worn.

Today as you've said RN Commandos (along with Army and RAF) undertake the All Arms Commando course (except medics who do a slightly different course) at CTCRM Lympstone and if successful are awarded the green beret (normally in a muddy field in the pouring rain from a tressal table at the end of the 30 miler!) they also get their Royal Naval Commando flashes. Got to say though, that apart from occassions when we had to wear No 1s with the Royal Marines Unit cap tally I and anyone else always wore the green beret be it in greens, No4s No3s or ward whites!

[edstorey]

Just curious, what documentary proof is there that the RN who graduated the Commando Course at HMS Armadillo were entitled to wear the green beret?

[NEMO]

` BEACHHEAD ASSAULT ` David Lee .
A history of the royal navy commandos in ww-2

" At the end of their training ,supplies permitting , the commandos were issued with their knives and green berets

Some commandos went on to finish their training at the army commando centre at Achnacarry, but for those whose training was eclusively at Ardentinny this was the moment they passed out as fully qualified commandos "


It is belived that on many occasions despite been qualified and having the right to wear the green beret many naval commandos opted to wear the normal naval headress to show their first loyalty to the senior service .

One former naval commando I have contacted remembers this point very clearly and stated to me it was a great cause of amusment to him and other navy commandos , to observe the shock of ` normal ` commandos they came in contact with , that although they could wear hard won hard earned famous head gear they chose not to .
Regards Nemo.

[edstorey]

'Beachhead Assault' is a great secondary source, does the author quote his primary source for this beret information?

[NEMO]

Good morning ED , i do understand your distinction in primary and secondary source records , and i agree it is one thing to agree that the naval commandos did wear the green beret and another thing to admit that they had official permission to actualy wear it .

Again quoting from Beach head assault ( not a great book but may be the best avallable )

page 59 3rd paragraph
`for those RN commandos who finishd the training at Achnacarry the final passing out parade was the moment they received the coverted green beret and commando knife from Col Vaughan `

page 59 4th paragraph
quote from Able seaman Lofty Lucas `G` commando
"at the end you got your beret and your knife if you failed they told you what you had failed on and gave you the option to go back and do it again, you would see tears on the faces of any one that had failed "

page 59 5th paragraph
`N COMMANO received their beret and knifes not at the passing out parade but just before embarkation on the voyage to Sicily .`

quote from Leading seaman Ray Bromley `N` commano
naval caps were still been worn the beret and knife were been withheld until such time as we were ready to leave on the assault ship "

hope this was of interest ,Nemo.

[NEMO]

Good morning ED , i do understand your distinction in primary and secondary records , and I do understand you point ,

it is one thing to agree that the naval commandos did wear the green beret and another thing to admit that they had been granted official permission to wear it .

Again quoting from Beach head assault ( not a great book but may be the best avallable )

page 59 3rd paragraph
`for those RN commandos who finished the training at Achnacarry the final passing out parade was the moment they received the coverted green beret and commando knife from Col Vaughan `

page 59 4th paragraph
quote from Able seaman Lofty Lucas `G` commando
"at the end you got your beret and your knife if you failed they told you what you had failed on and gave you the option to go back and do it again, you would see tears on the faces of any one that had failed "

page 59 5th paragraph
`N COMMANO received their beret and knifes not at the passing out parade but just before embarkation on the voyage to Sicily .`

quote from Leading seaman Ray Bromley `N` commano
naval caps were still been worn the beret and knife were been withheld until such time as we were ready to leave on the assault ship "

hope this was of interest ,Nemo.

[edstorey]

Thank you for your time and posts on this,

ED

[Bill A]

Clarification, please. It was suggested that the army commandos and the navy commandos wore different styles of combined ops patch. The army, it is suggested wore a round patch and the navy the tombstone pattern. Yet in the period photos, there seems to be no distinction between the tombstone and circular patches? Was there any significance to the shape of the patch, or was it simply what was at hand?

[grey_green_acorn]

For more info on "tombstone" and "circular" Combined Ops badges See:

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...0514#post50514

[Bill A]

Hi grey green acorn, Thanks for the link, but that is where my question came from. It appears that there is not a definitive answer, but the practice of wearing the Combined Ops patch as a "tombstone" vs circular patch appears to have been unregulated.

[54Bty]

The Tombstone shape came through the RN supply system and the round one through the Army supply system. As to the cutting down of the Tombstone shape to a round one it could be due to the individual wanting to wear the same shape as the one on all the notice boards, signs and headed paper, 'round'.

[Danny]

Hi,
A few notes from the files at the National Archives, London on the Combined Operations badge.

Regards

Danny


8th June 1942
For military personnel under the Chief Combined Operations Command to wear a CO badge as a formation sign"

"Supplies of signs(Pattern No. 291A) can be obtained from HMS Quebec"


8th December 1942
"Badge as issued is not circular but will be cut into circle before being sewn onto blouse"


21st December 1942
"Combined Operations Badges bought in a shop near Trafalgar Square for 13/10d.(thirteen shillings and ten pence) I understand they can now be bought almost anywhere"

"Expensive as from official sources the cost is 1d each" (one penny)


31st December 1942
To Lt Col R. V. Boyce
Combined Operations Training Centre
Courtney, BC, Canada

"30 pairs of CO Badges are forwarded herewith":

"There is no objection to them being cut into a circle before being sewn on"


February 1943
Glenfinart Camp (HMS Armadillo)

Naval Beach Commandos were wearing the CO Badge reversed with barrels of Thompson facing towards rear - Due to old Navy custom of Gunnery Badges pointing to the rear when being worn. Officer (CO ?) asked if they could carry on this practice.

The reply was No - Instructions had been laid down on how the badges were to be worn.

In the reply the following comment was also added "The mental processes of the senior officers of the Beach Commandos have, however been a mystery to me for some time".


12th April 1943
Badges Pattern 291A (prs for BD) Pair
" " 292A (red) Single Badge
" " 292B (blue) Single Badge

I believe "red" and "blue" refers to the uniform they are to be worn on and not the colour of the badges.

17th June 1946
"The use of the Combined Operations Badge is to be discontinued with effect from the 1st July 1946"

[edstorey]

These are the only ones that I have.

[Antrim82]

In discussing Combined Ops Badges the following notes may be of help to give context to the Royal Navy’s view of battledress and the types and occasions of wear of the various badges.

Admiralty Fleet Order (AFO) 2930 dated 01/07/43

Any dress other than standard Naval uniform which officers or men are authorised to wear on account of employment on special services or special duties (e.g. khaki battledress for beach commandos) is to be regarded solely as a working dress, and in no case are such officers and men relieved from their obligation to maintain the Naval uniform appropriate to their rank or rating and of wearing it on all ordinary occasions, including long and short leave.
2. Senior or Commanding officers are to be guided by the custom of the Service as to the occasions when working dress is worn.

On the subject of Gold badges

AFO 3025 Kit and Uniform of ratings – Alterations for the period of the war - 12/10/39

‘The wearing of No 1 Dress and of gold arm and collar badges is suspended for all ratings except for optional wear on leave , and in the case of men not dressd as seamen , as indicated in paragraph 4a below .

Paragraph 4a covered the replacement of the cloth no 1 suit by a second serge suit in ratings not dressed as seamen’s compulsory kit but did allow those in possession to continue to wear the cloth suit instead until they required replacement ‘in the ordinary course’.

The practical result of this that the gold badges ceased to be required or provided by the Royal Navy, and therefore no official ‘war economy substitues’ were ever produced. Further any war raised branches and organisations such as Combined Operations were never provided with Gold badges from service stocks at any time.

This is shown in AFO 654/44 dated 10/02/1944 - Clothing Soap & Tobacco Issuing Prices , Kit upkeep allowances, etc.
Where the combined operations badges are shown as

291A Combined operations badge red pair 2d
(These are the red on blue facing pairs for wear on battle dress)

292A Combined operations badge red each 1d
(These are the red on blue single badges for wear on Blue Naval Uniform)

292B Combined operations badge Blue each 1d
(These are the blue on white single badges for wear on White Uniform)

There are no badges pattern 291 or 292 which would be the gold versions if they existed. Gold badges are shown in the lists for the prewar branches but this is understandable because AFO 3025 did leave the option open to individuals to purchase them from stores for wear on leave ‘until existing stocks have been exhausted’.

Also in the lists are clearly marked war economy badges of the woven red on blue, and blue on white variety. These have the same pattern numbers as the standard branch or rate badge but with prefix of X before the Pattern No. These woven badges are half the price of the standard versions and are commonly seen on battledress. In pictures they generally appear duller and flatter than the standard versions with a square top. This is because they were supplied as a continuous strip of identical badges which were then cut off as required.

The riddle of the request to wear the combined ops patches the other way round on the battledress by the Royal Navy I would suggest is simply a matter of uniformity.
The single badges 292A and B were worn in standard naval uniform on the right cuff only. In this position the tommy gun would have faced aft exactly as for the single gun badges used by 3rd class gunnery ratings. On the battledress the instruction was for the facing pairs to be worn with the tommy gun pointing forward, an exact reversal of the practice on Naval uniform, which would also potentially produce a conflict with the direction of a rating’s single gun or torpedo branch badge. The practical solution to this conflict as you cannot change the single badge is therefore to swap over the facing pairs on the battledress. Not so much of a mystery! I thought that this sort of inter service misunderstanding was part of what Combined Operations was meant to remove!.

With regard to the shape of official RN badges these would have been provided in the standard tombstone shape. I suspect the triming to a circular shape for battle dress was a matter or personnal choice by individual units. What I would have expected however is that modifying those worn on the Blue or White uniform in a similar manner would have been seen as contrary to uniform regulations.

The gold badges as has been mentioned above were neither provided by or required in the Royal Navy. There use on ‘Tiddly suits’ for wear on leave is not doubted and appears to be offically tolerated. The source of them in UK is however strictly enterprising tailors. The cost has beeen mentioned in previous posts and it is worth bearing in mind that at 12 to 13 shillings for a single gold badge these represent something like 4 days pay before stoppages for a junior rating. A lot of money for a badge which almost certainly would have to be removed and repaced with the red version on return from leave in order for them to have the correct amount of compulsory Kit. I cannot therefore believe the use of gold wire badges was widespread.

With the yellow and red silk versions quoted the cost is still considerably higher than the offical versions but possibly they were seen as more affordable for the purpose of wear on leave. There is also the possibilty that some yellow badges may be of Canadian manufacture but again I have a doubt as to wheather they were offical RCN issue . (See my separate thread in the RCN pages) . Due to the cost, the high visibilty of the yellow badges and the fact that the tailors quote for single badge not facing pairs I suggest it was unlikely that these badges were ever worn on battledress by Naval Personnel.

Hope this information assists with the debate.

[rkcampbell]

This is all I needed to read ;-)

In the reply the following comment was also added "The mental processes of the senior officers of the Beach Commandos have, however been a mystery to me for some time".