1st Regiment of Foot Guards Ammunition Pouch Badge

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Glad to help, Andy. These might interest you as a guide to the period:

1. http://military-historians.org/compa...rds/guards.htm

2. https://www.scribd.com/document/2675...-Boxes-Pouches

Excellent Toby, not seen this before thanks.
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by aussiemike79

Hi all, yes it is the same badge on ebay. I found it incorrectly named in an antique store recently. Interesting to hear it is fake, I haven't seen any other fakes of this badge and it seems a lot of effort for someone to make a single fake and then sell it under the wrong name.
It has the same tabs for attachment at the back as others of the same era but without the holes drilled through them, according to the link from toby. I don't see any difference in the manufacture of this badge to those of the same era in said link.
I also had to clean a decent amount of corrosion off it which means it is not of recent manufacture at any rate, manchesters.

Originals are not uncommon Mike and often sell at auction, frequently as part of collections of Guard’s insignia including arrays of valise badges. A key indication of a genuine item would be signs of long term polishing on the face of the badge. Crisp, pristine surfaces are not a good sign?

[aussiemike79]

The badge was corroded when I found it so I cleaned the corrosion off to conserve the badge. If it is a fake it would have to be late 19th century at least given the corrosion level.
I traced the badge back to a Noble Numismatics auction where the person I bought it from had purchased it. Noble had it as an original George III badge but I'm not that familiar with them so I'm not sure if that carries any weight.

The badge as displayed by Noble is below.

noble.jpg

[aussiemike79]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Originals are not uncommon Mike and often sell at auction, frequently as part of collections of Guard’s insignia including arrays of valise badges. A key indication of a genuine item would be signs of long term polishing on the face of the badge. Crisp, pristine surfaces are not a good sign?

Could you happen to point me in the direction of a photo of an original if any? I spent a lot of time asking opinions and researching this badge with no luck. It is not one of the replicas used by re-enactment groups in the UK and US as i have been in touch with them and theirs are too new at any rate.
Also is there a museum or other expert who I might get in touch with who may be able to provide definitive evidence one way or the other?

Thanks, Mike.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by aussiemike79

Could you happen to point me in the direction of a photo of an original if any? I spent a lot of time asking opinions and researching this badge with no luck. It is not one of the replicas used by re-enactment groups in the UK and US as i have been in touch with them and theirs are too new at any rate.
Also is there a museum or other expert who I might get in touch with who may be able to provide definitive evidence one way or the other?

Thanks, Mike.

They are more common as the 1st Guards had three battalions compared with the 2nd and 3rds two each. There is such a badge at each of these auction room.com links, Mike:

1. Bottom left of array https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/a...6-a444003e5aec

2. Top centre of array, Lot 1234. https://www.ewbankauctions.co.uk/201...t_detail&year=

NB. The cartouche pouch badges evolved quite seamlessly to become Valise badges from the reign of George IV onwards. They were simply transferred from one black leather container to another. The Grenadier’s pattern then evolved to a more oval shape in order to encompass a cypher comprising more letters. There is a Guards museum at Birdcage Walk in London, but they don’t employ antiquarians which is what you really require. An auction house specialising in military items is the best place to seek advice. There are several in London that you could find via a search engine.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

They are more common as the 1st Guards had three battalions compared with the 2nd and 3rds two each. There is such a badge at each of these auction room.com links, Mike:

1. Bottom left of array https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/a...6-a444003e5aec

2. Top centre of array, Lot 1234. https://www.ewbankauctions.co.uk/201...t_detail&year=

NB. The cartouche pouch badges evolved quite seamlessly to become Valise badges from the reign of George IV onwards. They were simply transferred from one black leather container to another.

In my opinion the second one is a fake.
Andy

[aussiemike79]

Thanks for posting that Toby, I have contacted the Guards museum for an opinion and am looking for some experts to ask.

The 1st picture you posted is fairly clear and I'm struggling to see any difference to mine. The top of my badge is not quite as defined on the top of the crown but it has the same un-symmetrical point below the garter. It's a pity I can't see the back.

I had a thought on your opinion it should be more polished than it is. With no holes in the back tags is it not likely, as someone else mentioned, to have never been mounted on a pouch?

If it was made around 1815 it would have been surplus once the badge changed to the oval shape. It may have been lost or someone 'borrowed' it.

I have to agree the second badge looks a little too nice, it also has a line above the bottom point which is not in existence in the 1st photo or on my badge.

edit: Bosleys description of the badge "A scarce cast brass excavated example. Within a crowned Garter, a GR Cypher, reversed and interlaced and bearing III to the centre. Three flat integral loops to reverse, GC"

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by aussiemike79

Thanks for posting that Toby, I have contacted the Guards museum for an opinion and am looking for some experts to ask.

The 1st picture you posted is fairly clear and I'm struggling to see any difference to mine. The top of my badge is not quite as defined on the top of the crown but it has the same un-symmetrical point below the garter. It's a pity I can't see the back.

I had a thought on your opinion it should be more polished than it is. With no holes in the back tags is it not likely, as someone else mentioned, to have never been mounted on a pouch?

If it was made around 1815 it would have been surplus once the badge changed to the oval shape. It may have been lost or someone 'borrowed' it.

I have to agree the second badge looks a little too nice, it also has a line above the bottom point which is not in existence in the 1st photo or on my badge.

edit: Bosleys description of the badge "A scarce cast brass excavated example. Within a crowned Garter, a GR Cypher, reversed and interlaced and bearing III to the centre. Three flat integral loops to reverse, GC"

Mike it’s not impossible that yours is a genuine badge, they do occasionally still turn up, but after two centuries it is becoming exceedingly rare. Be aware that there has for a long time now been unscrupulous manufacturers who specialise in reproducing old badges using a sophisticated ageing process, as well as similar dealers who trade in them. Just as old masters can be repainted, so can old badges be recreated. It really needs a specialist eye to physically inspect and sometimes test the badge in order to be sure. I wish you good luck and hope that it turns out to be what you would like it to be.

[Luke H]

As Toby alludes copies these days by various techniques, including lost wax can be exceedingly good and very faithful in the detail reproduced. If it’s a reproduction by this method from an original the only difference may be a slight size and weight variation. Obviously you would need an original for comparison purposes which I realise is currently the snag.

Equally when we think Fox restrikes of pre-territorial glengarry badges have been around since the early 1900s no doubt reproductions/copies of earlier Georgian badges pre-date this. Waterloo period items I suspect would be popular and likely place for repros to start for obvious reasons.

The man who may have had some notes on this, Jeff McWillian, especially around sizes and weights very sadly passed away recently.

Another forum member Neibelungen has worked restoring older items around this period. Hopefully he sees this thread and may have some experience handling originals or helpful information.

[aussiemike79]

It's the issue with rare badges I guess, trying to authenticate them. It's not only a lack of originals but I haven't been able to find any known reproductions to compare against either.
I have contacted 4 of the main militaria auction houses in the UK to see what they think. It may end up being inconclusive.
The dimensions, for anyone interested, are 11cm x 6.5cm x 106 grams, please excuse the metric.

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by aussiemike79

It's the issue with rare badges I guess, trying to authenticate them. It's not only a lack of originals but I haven't been able to find any known reproductions to compare against either.
I have contacted 4 of the main militaria auction houses in the UK to see what they think. It may end up being inconclusive.
The dimensions, for anyone interested, are 11cm x 6.5cm x 106 grams, please excuse the metric.

I see its on ebay again as 200 years old! Really.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1st-Regim...YAAOSwP59eDYJZ

Which of the '4 main militaria auction houses' confirmed that?

regards

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by manchesters

I see its on ebay again as 200 years old! Really.

Which of the '4 main militaria auction houses' confirmed that?

regards

I saw it earlier on eBay.
Andy

[aussiemike79]

Originally Posted by manchesters

I see its on ebay again as 200 years old! Really.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1st-Regim...YAAOSwP59eDYJZ

Which of the '4 main militaria auction houses' confirmed that?

regards

Bosleys, I dropped the price to match the 'expected' auction price guide. You should apply for a job there, with such expertise as you have I'm sure they would be glad to have you.

[manchesters]

Well I am sure it will sell then.

[aussiemike79]

Originally Posted by manchesters

Well I am sure it will sell then.

I only started this thread to ask for dates of usage of the badge.Then I listed the badge on ebay and it became a FAKE, with no further evidence required.

I can't find any reproductions of this badge or even any mention of them. If you have knowledge of such then please share it with us.