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  #1  
Old 01-04-08, 07:28 PM
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Smile White metal walking out badges 1908-14

Back in the mid 1960's a member of the MHS was advertising for white metal walking out cap badges of infantry regiments, how far he got I don't know. The only all white metal badge I have is a Royal Warwickshire, Some people may have thought that these badges were Volunteer badges of unspecified Btn numbers. I would be interested if anyone has any all white metal infantry badges as I feel it would be advantageous to compile a list.
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  #2  
Old 01-04-08, 07:51 PM
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This is an area which gets very unclear. For example Kings own Regt w/m badges exist - is it a pre1908 VB, WW2 RAC Bn, Regtly Plated or Chromed, Franklin Mint repro? All very difficult.

Anyway I have:

RScots (lugged w/m TF Bn?)
Monmouthshire (1st bn pre 1922)


Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 23-08-08 at 08:15 PM. Reason: add Monmouths
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  #3  
Old 01-04-08, 08:37 PM
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I agree with Alan,
The difficulty is distinguishing what are truly white metal "walking out "badges ( I have seen the advert in old Bulletins and so there must be ,I would have thought,some basis for saying these badges existed ) with white metal volunteer and territorial badges which were no different to the badges worn by the regulars except in the metal they were made of.

Another minefield is the question of chromed badges, I have seen a number of suggestions as to why these exist such as plated for parades such as presentation of colours etc.

When you think of the issues with all brass economy issue badges at least there is some archival information as to what should exist.

Perhaps a start might be for members to continue to list as Alan has started ( with photos if possible) badges that they own which might be in this category

P.B.
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  #4  
Old 01-04-08, 08:48 PM
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Vol Bns generally wore WM badges - though the amount of documentary sources for Vol bn insignia is VERY limited. In terms of TF badges - which is what I think we are talking about in terms of "walking out dress" - there are indeed some sources that we know of. To my mind it is an entirely different thing from bm badges that were plated / chromed.
The following comes from the research into Kings Regt badges that Peter B and I are doing.
The (first, and only) Territorial Year Book (1910), is slightly ambiguous about this.
‘Two suits of uniform will be provided for each man, one of which must be for Service Dress. The other may be used as an undress or “walking-out” uniform.’ Regarding badges it declared that honours won by the regular RA and RE would be omitted from TF badges. With these exceptions however, ’distinctive badges are common to both forces. In the "walking-out” uniform they will be entirely of white metal or bronze, except where permission has been given to adopt gold lace and gilt ornaments. Cap Badges worn in service dress will be as worn in the Regular Army with the omission of honours.’ This would suggest that insignia was either in white metal or blackened metal – as the term ‘bronze’ was used by the ACD at least.

In 1908 the new West Lancashire Territorial Association was a little clearer when they resolved:
'That silver and white metal be adopted by all units under the administration of this Association for walking out dress, and for all uniforms except service dress.'

This appears to confirm what you say though it would be good if there was corroborative evidence from other CountyAssociations. For the King's it turned out to be not quite so simple (but that's another story !).

the story continues ...
Julian


Last edited by KLR; 01-04-08 at 08:57 PM. Reason: punctuation
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  #5  
Old 02-04-08, 06:17 PM
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I have the following:-
1.Royal Welsh Fusiliers, loops north/south.
2.South Wales Borderers, loops east/west.
3.Welsh Regiment, loops east/west
4.1st Battn Monmouthshire, slider. They wore the standard brass version along with the other two Battn's for service dress.
Cofion,
Kevin
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  #6  
Old 02-04-08, 06:37 PM
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The SWB badge is not a TF badge as their TF Bn wore the Brecknockshire badge. The SWB did have an RAC Regt in WW2 who wore an all w/m bagde.

I have read that the w/m Monmouth is the 1st Bn pre 1920 (when they adopted the busy one with wreath and battlehonours. The 2nd and 3rd wore the plain brass versions. Authors' opinions differ.


Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 23-08-08 at 08:15 PM.
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  #7  
Old 02-04-08, 06:59 PM
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Smile White metal walking out badges

Thank you gentlemen for your comments and help in this matter. I should have been more specific when I mentioned white metal badges, I should have said that this was to be badges that were normally made from bimetal or gilding metal such as Queens West Surrey or Buffs. Badges that have been chromed or plated I think don't warrant putting on a list, as with T.F. Btn badges such as 7th King's which were normally made in white metal.
As for people who sell these as VB's, it's nearly as bad as dealers who sell OSD collars as officer's cap badges.
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  #8  
Old 02-04-08, 08:30 PM
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I can remember a similar discussion on Brit Regiments and it is surprising exactly how many of these white metal badges there are. There are numerous versions of why they exist. Volunteers (though many of the wm vol badges have either battle honours removed or have the wording adjusted to show the vb status), musicians, walking out dress or NCO`s all being in white metal or nickel. There are also chromed or nickel plated badges. The chromed badges are post wwii and i would not like to enter into debate as to whether any of these were issued officially or even regimentally as i simply do not know, biy modern for me. There is also a group of regiments that had infantry battalions converted to armour and transferred to the RAC during wwii. They were part of the RAC but were still permitted to use their original badge. To make a distinction between the infantry battalions and the RAC converted units, the REME units attached to the RAC plated many badges unofficially in the field. There is mention of this in Andrew Wilsons book `Flamethrower` which covers an unnamed `crocodile` armed regiment of the 79th armoured div. It is a work of fiction in so much as the characters used are not real or at least have been changed. However, the events, chronology, and action seen is fact. The unit involved is 151 RAC which was a initially raised as a TA bn of the Buffs. I am lucky enough to have a friend who served in this unit and he has confirmed that the events and details are accurate. However, he cannot recall the colour of his badge! Other things taking more priority like 88`s whizzing past your head! Definatley worth a read though the true horrors of this flame throwing tank (later descibed as napalm) are not described nor the fact that crocodile crews never became prisoners as they were shot on the spot! Anyway, have seemed to have wandered.

Have many wm badges of normal bm or brass badges as follows
West Yorkshire regt on lugs
Yorkshire regiment Broderick (which i know to be volunteers)
Northumberland Fusiliers on lugs
Inniskilling Dragoons on slider (nice badge but jury out on this one as side turrets do not have fretted windows)
Middlesex on lugs
7th, 8th and 7th/8th bns West Yorkshire (Leeds Rifles) which i know to be walking out
Royal Warwicks on slider
Koyli 2 part badge on slider
Yorkshire Hussars on lugs
Yorkshire Dragoons on slider
East Yorks on slider, 2 part. wm rose with brazing hole on wm badge
Suffolks on lugs
Recce corps
Royal Guernsey Militia on 3 lugs
Hampshire 2 part on lugs. This is the wwi VTC badge
Royal Scots Greys on lugs
Royal Scots on slider
The Welsh on slider
7th dragoon guards `quo fata vocant` pattern
The Royal Dragoons on slider
Machine gun corps on slider. The wm badge was used by the Lincoln Yeomanry that were converted to the MGC during wwi
i also have a REME badge that has been nickel plated many years ago as the slider is wm as well.

There is also a white metal wwi first pattern tank corps badge. I was told by the dealer that it was worn by the armoured recovery unit!
There is also a wm Coldstream Guards badge, Lancashire Fusiliers, 10th Hussars (POW)

Keep smiling Dave
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  #9  
Old 03-04-08, 08:41 AM
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Alan,
Who is suggesting that the SWB badge is TF? I am well aware that their TF Battn was the Brecknocks. We believe the all white metal to have been worn either by the V.B's on their sercice dress or possibly by the Militia Battn, as I have never seen one in reversed metals for the Militia. More research is needed on this.
With regard to the Monmouthshire the white metal is the definitive pattern for the 1st Battn prior to 1920, however as I stated previously all three Battns wore the brass dragon on service dress. There is a lot of photographic evidence for this.

Hwyl,
Kevin

Last edited by Alan O; 23-08-08 at 08:15 PM. Reason: Typo
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  #10  
Old 03-04-08, 09:59 AM
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Kevin,

Re the w/m SWB I was following the theme of TF badges from KLR's comments about the TF thread and second TF walking out uniform. I have never heard of a regular SWB walking out badge in all silver but I have seena few w/m ones and the dealer is always keen to sell them as RAC badges at a very high price! The SWB VB badges that I have seen have always had the VB title added.

I don't suppose you have seen a all brass post 22 Monmouths with wreath. K&K Vol 2 list is as a variant but it is not one I have come across? I have a w/m pre 22 and the w/m post 22 badges but not that one.

Thanks

Alan



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Last edited by Alan O; 23-08-08 at 08:15 PM.
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  #11  
Old 03-04-08, 03:43 PM
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Alan,
I have never come across a brass 2nd pattern 1st Mons. However, I know a man who would know, as they say and will try to get hold of him and see if he has one and futher, if he'll let me get a photo for you.
On the SWB front, I have only ever been offered the w.m badge locally as a volunteer badge. It's never been put forward as RAC connected. Am I to assume that those offered as RAC are chromed, or just white metal?
I have two examples of the 5th V.B badge and have seen a 3rd V.B. Although, the 5th V.B example shown by Bryn Owen in his book on Montgomeryshire shows a completely different pressing. I haven't got around to detailed research on the SWB as yet, but clearly this is needed.
Hwyl,
Kevin
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  #12  
Old 03-04-08, 03:48 PM
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Kevin.

I was offered a wm SWB badge by a dealer in Cardiff and it was all w/m rather than chromed. He said that it was RAC but to be honest it looked a bit ropey to me so I left it. It was too 'glittery' rather than proper nickel so I suspected that it was a fake.

The VB have never been well documented and are noticably absent from K&K. My personal opinion is that he left them out as he himself did not have a full set!

Alan
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  #13  
Old 05-04-08, 12:40 PM
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OK, I've just got a whole lot of information on WM badges ! That is to say, a set of John Player cigarette cards of Territorial Regiments Colours and Cap Badges, dated 1910. I've given the no of each card and the titles of regts depicted. I've also listed what colour the caps badges are shown in; most are WM, some GM and a few bimetal.
I don't know enough about these various badges (except 7/ Kings) but thought you chaps would be interested !
I assume they are "real" depictions !! ??

1 5th Hants, wm, rose in star
2 3/ PASLI wm
3 Yorks Dragoons wm
4 5/ Lincs Rgt sphinx in star w,m
5 4/ Norfolk brit wm
6 4/RWK wm
7 6/ Manch Rgt wm & blue scr
8 4/R Sussex wm bl garter strap
9 5/ R Scots Fus wm
10 8/ Sherwood Foresters wm
11 City of Lon Rough Riders Yeo wm
12 4/ KSLI wm
13 4/ PoWs Own Yorks Rgt wm
14 1/ Herts Rgt wm bl bkgnd to hart
15 6/ HLI wm – bugle on star no scr etc
16 7/ RWFus wm, no outer scr
17 4/ Ox & Bucks LI wm
18 5/ N Staffs wm
19 5/ West Yorks wm
20 5/ DCLI
21 QOwn W Kent Yeo wm
22 4/ Berks Rgt wm
23 7/ Dk Camb Mddx Rgt wm
24 4/ E. Yorks Rgt wm
25 4/ Dorset Rgt – no sphinx on top
26 2nd Co of Lond Yeo Westm. Dgns gm
27 4/ KOYLI wm
28 5/ E. Surrey Rgt wm
29 N. Som. Yeo wm
30 5/ Kings Own
31 5/ Seaforth Hi. L & coronet above
32 5/ Welsh Rgt
33 4/ Gloucs Rgt wm blank tablet
34 Loth & Border Horse gm
35 4/ Black watch wm, no upper scrolls
36 4/ E. Lancs Rgt wm, blank tablet
37 5/ Northumberland Fus wm
38 Norfolk Yeo gm
39 7/ Kings Lpl Rgt wm
40 5/ South Staffs Rgt bimetal
41 7/ Royal Scots wm saltire on star, thistle in centre
42 Fife & Forfar Yeo wm
43 4/ Suffolk Rgt wm
44 5/ Gordon Hi. bimetal – all wm x gm coronet
45 4/ Roy Warks Rgt wm
46 Qns Own Ox. Hussars wm
47 Hampshire Yeo wm
48 1/ Herefordshire Rgt
49 7/ London wm
50 1/ London (RF) wm

One another post - somewhere - I will say that I'm interested in swapping (or selling) most of these (I'll leave you to guess which one I want to keep)

Last edited by KLR; 05-04-08 at 08:20 PM.
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  #14  
Old 05-04-08, 03:17 PM
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These are my TF variations. I have not shown the Tf badges that were normally found in w/m such as the Glosters.

I have only shown the all w/m ones and not any chromed examples.
The RScots is shown in Bloomers as a Tf badge and does not specify the Bn but presumably 6th upwards as the 4th/5th had their own badge. I imagine that they wore the standard bi/m one in normal dress and the reason that he does not specify a Bn identity is that it was common to all of them.

Alan
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Last edited by Alan O; 23-08-08 at 08:17 PM.
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  #15  
Old 05-04-08, 08:23 PM
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Well, I think you are on the way to showing that there are TF Bns who wore WM for WO dress.
Great badges !
Does anyone else have ones corresponding to those on the cards ?
Julian
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