NZ reinforcement numerals

[vigilans]

To show a variety of NZ numerals, and a number of numerals from 14 -19

[Tinto]

Hi Brent,
Interesting stuff, thanks for the pictures. I don't see a numeral "1" on Sergeant Palmer's epaulette but could be wrong.
The "1" and "5" numerals I have measure 15mm high.
Attached are quick shots of some of my Reinforcement badges showing the numerals I have. The "26"s have hex lugs E-W, "27" has Stokes name on bar and has loop lugs E-W, "32" has hex lugs E-W, "33"s have Stokes name on bar and have loop lugs E-W, "37" has hex lugs N-S, "38" hex lugs E-W, and "43"s hex lugs N-S.
Hope this helps,
Cheers, Tinto

[Mike]

I've removed the posts with the name calling and profanity. So it's not worth writing it in the first place as it will be deleted.

[stevjp]

Guys,
My 15 to 19 numbers. I only have:
1 x 16th
1 x 18th
2 x 19th

All the best
James

[stevjp]

Sorry guys, I do have a 17th as well.
Regards
James

[Investment]

No makers name on either of these number 18's.

[atillathenunns]

Sergeant Allan Palmer, Service No. 25301, 14th Reinforcements, J Company.




Private William Robertson, Service No. 14482, 14th Reinforcements Auckland Infantry Battalion, A Company.

Originally Posted by pukman

Having been in touch with a few experienced badge collectors and military dealers ,one can form an opinion (and it is only an opinion).

These '' Stokes'' numerals do appear in some well established NZ badge collections .They have been uncommon in the past ,but some have come into collections via NZEF veteran's estates .This would suggest that some were worn by NZ'ers in WW1.However the flood on the market at the moment would suggest to me that these ones were a bulk lot of unissued badges .

More research is required ,but lets keep it tidy

Cheers Iain

Iain like yourself I do not collect NZ Reinforcement Numerals although I do have a single D/10 which measures at just over 25mm.

I do however collect regulation NZ Regimental Numerals (1 -17) and regulation NZ Corps/Battery Letters (A – J), which were all made by Gaunt and were all the regulation size of 5/8th of an inch (approx. 15mm)
I also collect NZ Reinforcement Letters (A – J) all of which measure just over 16mm.

Unfortunately as I don’t have a Stokes Numeral in my collection I can only comment that the size mentioned by Vigilans [Quote:] ― “they are NOT Australian Slouch hat numerals, they are too small (at 13mm)” ― seems unusually small to me considering the NZ regulation size was 15mm.

The Stokes made numerals are rather distinctive considering they have a unique cross bar attachment which sits underneath the numerals, so it seems rather suspicious to me that neither you nor I have found a period photo of a New Zealand reinforcement wearing a Stokes made numeral.
(I do however have period photos showing all of the 5 NZ camp made reinforcement numerals that are depicted in Corbett’s badge book ― pg 176, 183, 184 and 185)

Interestingly Lowe’s Reinforcement badge book (pg 53) shows a war time picture showing NZ Reinforcement Numerals beginning with 17 all the way up to 34, none of which appear to be made by Stokes.

What we both can agree on is that the Stokes made Numerals being sold by Bigg-mama-nz are most unlikely to have ever been worn at all by NZ Reinforcements, which means that if evidence does turn up showing that NZ Reinforcements did actually wear Stokes made numerals, then Bigg-mama-nz has single handily crushed any value of the Stokes Numerals that “have come into collections via NZEF veteran's estates.”

To put this matter at rest Puk, can you supply any proof or provenance of Stokes Numerals that can be linked to an actual WW1 NZ veteran, which you mention exists “in some well established NZ badge collections?”

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Tinto

Hi Brent,
Interesting stuff, thanks for the pictures. I don't see a numeral "1" on Sergeant Palmer's epaulette but could be wrong.
The "1" and "5" numerals I have measure 15mm high.
Attached are quick shots of some of my Reinforcement badges showing the numerals I have. The "26"s have hex lugs E-W, "27" has Stokes name on bar and has loop lugs E-W, "32" has hex lugs E-W, "33"s have Stokes name on bar and have loop lugs E-W, "37" has hex lugs N-S, "38" hex lugs E-W, and "43"s hex lugs N-S.
Hope this helps,
Cheers, Tinto

Tinto, at 15mm I am leaning more to your 1 & 5 numerals being Regimental numbers belonging the 15th (North Auckland) Regiment.

Your 27th & 33rd Stoke made numerals are interesting, do you know their history by any chance?

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by stevjp

Guys,
My 15 to 19 numbers. I only have:
1 x 16th
1 x 18th
2 x 19th
I do have a 17th as well.
Regards
James

Originally Posted by Investment

No makers name on either of these number 18's.

Chaps great to see these, could you supply height measurements by any chance?

Cheers
Brent

[pukman]

Brent,

We are trying to all trying to establish if these Stokes made numerals were worn by NZEF or not .I cannot find any photographic evidence at the moment to say either way .In my small (portrait) collection its not conclusive as the epaulettes are not clear or showing the numerals

My information however comes from a well established and respected badge collector ,who has bought from estates of 1st NZEF soldiers .

I know that Alf Abel has been selling these badges for decades so they are not a modern phenomena

My lot ,20(18mm),23(19.5mm)25 (16mm),26(16mm),27(14mm)

Iain

[Corey]

Here is a few of mine for comparison, with an E chucked in.

Numbers with Stokes & Sons Bars vs No Bars or Maker

Cheers
Corey

[Tinto]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Tinto, at 15mm I am leaning more to your 1 & 5 numerals being Regimental numbers belonging the 15th (North Auckland) Regiment.

Your 27th & 33rd Stoke made numerals are interesting, do you know their history by any chance?

Hi Brent,
Sorry, I do not know the provenance of the 27 and 33 Stoke numerals but like Iain has said, these numbers would have been in returned soldiers' estates and have been in the collection for a long time. I'm pretty sure they weren't purchased from Alf Albel.
Cheers, Tinto

[pukman]

Photographic evidence is the best kind .Here is a Stokes reinforcement numeral worn by one of our 1st NZEF soldiers

[vigilans]

Originally Posted by pukman

Photographic evidence is the best kind .Here is a Stokes reinforcement numeral worn by one of our 1st NZEF soldiers

What a bloody beauty Iain....well done

quote [Atillathenunns] "What we both can agree on is that the Stokes made Numerals being sold by Bigg-mama-nz are most unlikely to have ever been worn at all by NZ Reinforcements.....wrong!!!

quote [Atillathenunns] "To put this matter at rest Puk, can you supply any proof or provenance of Stokes Numerals that can be linked to an actual WW1 NZ veteran, which you mention exists “in some well established NZ badge collections?”" "....I guess he did just that Bren!

Guess that’s that eh Brent????

[Mike]

Interesting stuff.