19th Hussars (The Elephant Family).

[Frank Kelley]

I'll go with Option 2!

Originally Posted by Alan O

Option 1 - officer badges were all made privately so they came from different makeers.

Option 2 - the myth of a scarce double scroll badge based on a single/handfull of examples has led to demand creating a supply over the last 50 years.

[GriffMJ]

Alan

During the Great war the 19thH wore the small cypher, as luck would have it the Leicestershire Yeomanry's Adjutant, Captain J Bailward, was a 19th Hussar in 1915 and all images of him within the Regiment show him wearing the small cypher.

[Bill]

Has anyone noticed that the full stop is missing after the O as in P.W.O) on the double scrolls, except on the first in this thread (which also has no brackets)? Was it not issued because of the error? And why is this error repeated on even the silver badges from different manufactuers?

Two other rare badges with errors include The Cambridg(e)shire regiment the missing 'e' and King Edward's Horse motto - 'ausumas' instead of 'adsumas'

Just a thought. Cheers, Bill

[GriffMJ]

As a point of interest..... the image of the double scroll from the 1904 Dress regs.

[Alan O]

An observation: the 2 badges do not appear to be from the same die. The sealed pattern for the new badge was for 4659a/1903.

In my opinion it is entirely possible that the regt decided that they would not wear the sealed pattern badge, possibly because they were supposed to be worn on the Brodrick cap and the regiment were slow to change over to the new hat, and there were no large orders which would explain the singleton examples are either proofs or the singleton ones that were not immediately scrapped from the first production batch. I remain convinced that they were not, as has ben suggested, issued to the soldiers and then withdrawn on the regts' withdrawal from India, but not issued at all.

This is far more likely than the 1904-10 date of use proposed in some books. Whilst the sealed patterns for the 3 cap badges (single scroll, double scroll and then the collar pattern fitted with a slider) may be 1898, 1904 and 1910, it is more likely that the dates of use were single scroll 1898-1904, slidered collar 1907-22 and not at all for the double scroll. As yet I can find no evidence what badge was worn on the Brodrick or if that hat was worn at all.

As the regt was in India they would have a fair amount of latitude as to what they actually wore. I have yet to see any photos of what the regt wore in their FSC in India but I suspect it was their collar and not the elephant anyway.

I think that it is understandable that books have attributed the regtl cap badge to be from 1904 but once again the differnce between the theory of dress regulations and actual practice. What is clear that the myth that the regt wore this badge has fuelled a vast number of fakes to fill a demand for that last 40 odd years. I don't believe that there are any more out there waiting to be disovered as they were never there in the first place.

[GriffMJ]

Alan

One thing to note is that the 1904 image has been altered..... if you look closely there is black ink outlines that have been put in to strengthen edges (incorrectly in some parts). If you look at the common copy double scroll Nelly it does appear to follow the false detail in that image

[Alan O]

A badge that has eluded me for a while but I quite like this one.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Frank

These images are close to the 2nd Boer War..... frustrating though as the Officers and ORs are wearing the sewn on Nelly.... not the cap badge :-

Griff

I am now in a position to say that the image is most likely post WW1. The attached is from a book so pixelates at high resolution but is 1920s and shows the elephant badge in use.

It appears that having worn the Danneborg Cross in khaki caps in WW1, the regt returned to India and in 1920 adopted an elephant as their Foreign Service Hat badge. Upon disbandment the regt sent a number of troops back to UK (still in FSH with elephants). The regt was then reconstituted as C Sqn in 15/19. I have photos of the C Sqn still wearing 19th Hussars badges through out the 1920s in India and Egypt.

The regt retitled (twice in 1933) and returned to UK in 1934 so I would conclude that was the end of C Sqn and the elephant badge.

Alan

[Alan O]

Photo 1: The 15th/19th Kings Royal Hussars by Ralph Thompson 1989 shows several photos of 19H in 1920 and C Tp in md 20s all with the elephant visible. Only on the FSH mind you.

Photo 2: The title says it all. The regt was in Egypt post amalgamation so dates the continued use of the elephant badge on the FSH to the mid 20's. The scan is low resolution to fit on the forum but the sgt bottom left has obligingly faced the badge straight at the camera.

It is not evident whether it was sewn on or on lugs. I would suspect lugs as this was the norm (or a pin) rather than a sewn on badge.

[Alan O]

Another interesting photo of the 19th Hussars (those sent back to England rather than sent to other regts) prior to disbandment in 1921. Most are wearing FSH but in UK! There is at least one elephant in view. Unfortunately the couple wearing caps have their backs to the camera.
The buildings in Tidworth are still there as they are listed buildings.

The regt was reformed as C Sqn in the 15th/19th Hussars wearing their old badges and continued to do so for some years. You should note that this was the same for other regts such as the 5th Lancers and the 7th DG so the use of their badge does not cease in 1920/1 as some sales descriptions state.

[Alan O]

Having reviewed all of the photos it appears that the scroll-less elephant badge was re-adopted in 1920 on the regt's return to FSH and this was continued up to C Sqn's return. This is the best close up I can find in the book. Scanning printed copies rather than the original photos has its limit.

[Alan O]

B Sqn 19th Hussars India in 1920. Front rows FSH helmets are all fitted with elephant badges.

[GriffMJ]

Alan

Thats the "sewn on" Nelly isnt it? With ground rather than a scroll....

[GriffMJ]

This type...

[Alan O]

Not a bad match. Same design elephant as the officers' pouch badge. A new type of elephant badge ties in with the book's description of a new badge in 1920 when the regt returned to the India and Egypt.