Insignia changes T.F. to T.A.

[Union Jack]

Hello all,

Can anyone help me with the date of change for the Territorial Forces white metal buttons (and, I assume, badges) to the more usual brass/gilt types?

Was it when the TF became the TA around 1920 perhaps?

I have a very nice Royal Artillery mess dress i'm trying to date. It has KC RA buttons in silver. I assume they're silver as they've gone grey. The rank stars are the same. A great pity is the "T"s are missing from the epaulettes, I assume they would have been white/silver too.

The grenade collar badges do not have "Ubique" beneath them, am I right in saying that makes it pre-1917?

[KLR]

I think that the major change from WM to GM was when the Vol Bns became TF Bns in 1908. I'm sure there are exceptions and some units retained WM for various purposes (eg Walking Out Dress). Others may be more explicit.

[54Bty]

Do you have an image of the Jacket, to determine which pattern it is?

Marc

[manchesters]

KLR is correct re his observations.

But as yours is a mess dress it doesn't necessarily confirm to that as mess dress buttons were always prone to embellishments.

Grenade lapel badges to Territorials can be found with Ubique scrolls, laurel wreath scrolls or no scrolls as yours. They can also be found with T's underneath.

I am unsure on why you quote the 1917 cut off date, could you elaborate on that point please.

Regards

[Union Jack]

Thanks all, no photo as yet.

All items have matched tailors labels.

- The jacket is all black with roll (not notched lapel) collar, only the cuffs are red. No buttons apart from the two epaullettes.
Collare grenades are silver bullion with red cloth backing. No scroll beneath.

- The waistcoat is red with silver buttoned single-breasted front.

- Trousers are black with wide red stripe.

I was searching the net earlier for information and read something that suggested that TF units if the RA were not granted permission to wear the "Ubique' scroll until 1917.

[Union Jack]

Found this one on ebay that is identical

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Officers-R...p2047675.l2557

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by Union Jack

Thanks all, no photo as yet.

All items have matched tailors labels.

- The jacket is all black with roll (not notched lapel) collar, only the cuffs are red. No buttons apart from the two epaullettes.
Collare grenades are silver bullion with red cloth backing. No scroll beneath.

- The waistcoat is red with silver buttoned single-breasted front.

- Trousers are black with wide red stripe.

I was searching the net earlier for information and read something that suggested that TF units if the RA were not granted permission to wear the "Ubique' scroll until 1917.

That is the pattern worn throughout the RA from 1902 to 1913, except the Regulars had the scroll. It may have continued to be worn until a later date in the Territorials.

Marc

[Union Jack]

Thanks Marc, So I have a range of 1902 - 1913, or perhaps a little into, or through, the Great War.

Now I need to pin down when white metal gave way to brass during that date range to further narrow it down.

As the TF wasn't created until 1908, perhaps mine must be post-1908?