Forum Badge Guides

[Rockape]

Dear Fellow Members,

I have been reading recent threads regarding suggestions to aid those who are new to the art of collecting British & Commonwealth military badges etc. We currently have albums (some of which are private) and projects such as the magnificent Canadian badge images. However, the information in albums is scattered and sometimes does not have any extra detail that a beginner might find useful, like the likely period of use, fixings etc. This is rightly so as the created album was probably not intended for badge guides. Some members have already posted images and useful comments on badges they have collected in threads, but these are usually posted randomly, so the new user has to plough through searches (if they know how to search) to find something that might be of use.

I would like to propose adding a sub-section to each of the five main badge forums currently in existence with the heading <Forum Heading> Badge Guide. The content of the badge guide should have the same template for each unit and this needs to be agreed upon by forum members, so contributions to the template design and volunteers to start the ball rolling are very welcome. An example of this would be 'Australian Military Insignia Badge Guide'.

Here are some of my general suggestions for the each badge guide: Each guide should be focus on a unit and not just a single badge. For example:

Queen's own Worcestershire (Yeomanry) Hussars and Worcestershire Hussars Imperial Yeomanry

This heading would incorporate badges/titles/flashes from this unit. For infantry territorial/volunteer units that are parented by a major unit could be incorporated or remain separate. This will need to be agreed upon by members.

The information and images supplied should be of a certain image quality and there is a need to prevent erroneous badges making an appearance and ruining the guide, so a contributor will need to find someone who can verify the badges before posting. The badge guide should be just that...create a guide and use it as a reference. You may have questions regarding the images or require further information. Discussion of a guide/badge should be outside the badge guide sub-forum in the main <Forum Heading> area, thus leaving the badge guide free from misleading or irrelevant information. I believe this can be achieved by asking a moderator to make the thread 'read-only'.

A sensible suggestion from Mike (ID=1) is that we start with a single sub forum and go from there.

So, now I'm handing the microphone over to other members for your valuable input. Let’s see what we can achieve by collaborating on a worthwhile project.

Sincerely,

Garry

[Charlie585]

--

[billy]

Surely if a badge where to get the thumbs up in say the "General" thread site or even a panel of 4 "GURU,S" as they where aptly named passes them as 100% its then included but if for instance there was a degree of doubt? 3 for-one against! could this still not be included but in red say! so one knows there is a degree of doubt but user beware? or would this murky the waters and only "PURE" 100% information be acceptable?
Like others I find this idea a no brainer and thought such an area existed when first joined! have trawled the Search function and Albums and come away frustrated and no answer! look forward to seeing this work.
I think the first step will be to set up a simple start point for instance 1914 War period with sub headings that correspond to a Reference source (Gaynor,s for instance) Cavalry, then Infantry of the line, Economy issue badges with orders of precedence to those as sub headings and then filled out with any information forum users wish incorporated! I have only picked out 1st W.W. as an example from there you can go forwards most of us have badges starting here! prior to this period is a more rariified sphere of collecting as scarcity/price makes the amount of people wishing to visit this area that much less, but none the less this can come later! as a starting point perhaps with the Anniversary only a short step away it might be an idea?
cheers billy

[ubervamp]

I would just like to second everything that's been proposed here!
I've no doubt this would provide a useful guide/refence for all members alike.
A dissemination of valuable knowledge, with input from (hopefully) lot's of contributors.

My interest lies in WW1 cap badges, and as I continue to collect and increase my knowledge in the field, I was planning to spend Autumn and Winter producing an album/albums with high quality pix, and info on the badges, and also references to the regiments/battalions that wore them (battle honours, nicknames, etc). I've haven't landed on what themes would be presented, but something like WW1 Infantry Eco - badges, WW1 Corps and Services, etc., etc.

Still in the planning, and amassing stage, but if this could tie in with a wider forum project, I'd be more than happy, if neccessary, to adopt a variant approach, and contribute where I can.

Basically a very cool idea!

Colin

[ubervamp]

After a coffee and politically incorrect cigarette I've a few more thoughts reagarding this;

I suppose there are several ways of presenting a reference library as such.
One would be a "general overview" of, say, cap badges of WW1 Infantry of the Line. This would be on par with the CEF album.
This is a great way to get an overview, and help identifying badges (genuine badges!) In response to my very first post on the forum I was kindly offered pics and such a list from a member which helped me immensly.

In addition, I know a lot (most) of the contributing members have one or two areas (regiments?)about which they are particularly knowledgeable.
It would be great to be able to mine that knowledge, if one is interested in the same or similar regiment/period. It might be an idea to reference these albums from a general overview. Just the other day I was checking out the CEF battalions album, and appreciated the layout, but found upon clicking on the one battalion I was most interested in no further information.

I suppose more specialised information again takes two forms:
One, physical attributes: Design, Fittings, Variations, etc.

Another would be a wider information on the given subject (battalion) such as battle record, regimental history, etc.

Personally, a badge holds both these dimensions for me, and when studying a badge I find I'd like to know more about the symbolism and history of the badge and who wore it and where.

Ok - rambling on a bit here.
(Caffeine and nicotine induced)

In short - still a very cool idea, no matter how it's finalized

Colin

[Rockape]

Dear Ry, Billy and Colin,

Thank you for contributing to the discussion so far and the encouraging words of support. I thought I would leave the thread for one week to see what the general feeling was from members about badge guides. There are approximately 200 - 350 members who login each day to view and sometimes contribute to threads. So potentially, there are lots of members who view this discussion.

I can understand perhaps that you want to see how it pans out with just a few of us discussing this, but by not contributing, your voice is unheard and any decisions that are made will have been made without your input. This is your chance to shape a project that is of benefit to all forum members and not just a select few. Of course, newer members will find the guides useful as others have indicated such as the respondents so far. So come on, tell me how you would like it shaped and even the bad bits - what don't you want to see?

If you like I can start the ball rolling.... For example how do we approach a badge guide from a unit where badges exist but there is no evidence found so far of its use?

I will leave the discussion alone once again, hoping for more input.

Garry

[Charlie585]

--

[engr9266]

IF and I say if these guides do get formatted, would they be for the sole use of forum members as private or would they be open to anyone who looks in to the forum?? I ask because there would be a lot of hard work put into this project and I think that some of the more unscrupulous dealers would use the information to try to "con" collectors into thinking a badge is correct. What are the thoughts on this??

Jerry.

[Charlie585]

--

[billy]

Hi all, simpler the better, using K & K gives a new member a problem in obtaining it, most likely to large for the collection they posses and the cost for purchase of Volumes 1& 2?.
As for Gaynors this is relatively cheap has what a new beginner requires and is in sequence, from this start you can get to grips with the hobby and progress to K & K and the other reference works.
This also should be easier to set up as majority of information is already available though the forum members and still a useful guide to all! from this foundation it ought to be a lot less complicated to work from 1900,s backwards as we would have learnt from those guidelines set in stone that work!
This isn,t something for "Overnight" but over the years, that information within guidelines (Regiments of the Line, Cavalry, Yeomanry, etc) will be set in stone! once imparted it ought not to be changed? O/K for those badges which offer a problem annotate them in such a way as to let the user know there is doubt! but surely for the common badges this won,t be necessary? but this sets the foundations for new users and lets get it right the new to collecting tomorrow will be the old collectors of 10 - 20 years later so these can spend time researching obscure badges and imputing this knowledge for future collectors!
"The thing is we need the older collectors now to help set this up, also reference photos (will this help the restrikers? I think this is too late now! for those prior to 1900,s may require a discussion!) but lets start out small and grow!
I am all in favour of saying yes to all the Questions Charlie has mentioned, and those Albums I have are ther for all members if they are usefull to them its why I joined the forum to seek advice and offer it where I can and if not that then any help I can give fellow members! cheers billy

[2747andy]

Billy,
it is John Gaylor, not Gaynor

Hope you are well!

Andy

[billy]

Thanks Andy but what do you reckon to the Idea? cheer for now billy

[Mike]

So we have a sub-forum link under say the British Cavalry forum, for example. (Perhaps two in that one, Cavalry & Yeomanry)

"Cavalry Badge Guide"
"Yeomanry Badge Guide"

In there are a group of threads, one for each unit. The final content and look of the thread should be defined by one person. [Rockape?]

Perhaps we could have an initial 'all contributions' thread to gather the data and opinions. From the data and pictures in that thread a second concise final thread is created by one person as above.
The initial 'all contributions' thread is then moved out into the upper forum, leaving behind a list of erudite threads on the insignia of each unit.


These final threads would be closed for posting when required by the thread owner when he is finished working on it. Reopening on request by him when more info (if any) comes along.

[David Tremain]

I like Mike's summary of the whole thing. If a thread needs to be reopened if new information or another issue comes to light then the creator of that thread would need to have final say on that? But what if he disagrees with the new info? I think we would have to ensure that as much as possible each thread is non-partisan. Whoever collates all the information would obviously have a vested interest in that particular badge and a feeling of 'ownership', but in reality he would have to try to remain neutral.

A few suggestions:

(1) Where there is some question or doubt about a badge, there could be a standard sentence or phrase saying something like: "various members [no need to identify members per se] have expressed doubt/have concerns about..." Where possible, this should be qualified with pictures and/or official information to corroborate that statement.

(2) The comment about using K&K numbers versus Gaylor: While new members may not all have access to K&K volumes (they are expensive), they are at least reasonably complete. Yes, there are some omissions, and not every entry is 100% accurate, according to some members, but Gaylor doesn't assign numbers to each badge, which makes them harder to catalogue, and is not as comprehensive as K&K. K&K is also used as a 'standard' by auction houses for cataloguing badges.

(3) I also wonder about the statement about 'standard badges'. What is meant by this? Does it mean those with few variations, like many of the Corps and Services badges, or those that have amalgamated over the years, as with cavalry and infantry badges? As we have seen in a recent discussion about an R.Sigs badge, even that somewhat 'basic' badge, which hasn't changed that much still produces an interesting variation.

(4) I would like to suggest that those of us who are interested could pick a badge or two and try to write a guide to it. The only problem might be having access to Army Council Instructions, dress regs, regimental museums, etc., particularly those of us in the Colonies. Maybe we should be picking Canadian or Aussie badges instead, although my first interest is in British ones. Hopefully we could consult other members who might have access to this information.

Just my thoughts. David

[2747andy]

Guys,
I've being working on a "Collectors Guide(s)" for the past few years and amassed several thousand badges in the process! I think the proposed system here on the Forum is very praiseworthy, but I will not be taking part (hooray many shout!!). As there could well be conflict in the future?

Good luck!

Andy