Officers cap badges with loops/lugs

[Malcolm Davey]

Originally Posted by David Douglas

May I ask where the authority comes from for saying that OFFICERS' COLLAR BADGES HAD LUGS (blades) ? In addition, the statement that officers would replace a broken cap badge with a collar badge BECAUSE THEY WERE THE SAME SIZE ? For the record, I disagree with both statements but will be corrected if the appropriate evidence is presented. In 45 years of collecting and cataloguing I cannot remember a single lugged (bladed) OSD collar badge and I know of no regiment where the OSD collar badge was the same size as the cap badge as an EXCLUSIVE design. I would welcome further comment but would urge the use of authority/evidence in support. A good topic. David

After this I think i will let someone else come in to bat as you are totally confusing me, lugs and Blades are different types of fixings they are not the same,if you look at the Leinster Badges one has blades the other has lugs/loops/rings what ever you wish to call them,there is pictorial evidence of Officers wearing collars and even buttons in their caps but alas i do not own any,but im sure some of our fellow members might have.
Your comment " In 45 years of collecting and cataloguing I cannot remember a single lugged (bladed) OSD collar badge and I know of no regiment where the OSD collar badge was the same size as the cap badge as an EXCLUSIVE design". look up the 1902 Dress regulations for the Service Dress it will tell you the collar badge as for forage cap,again some members will have pictorial evidence of Officers wearing their cap badge and same size collars.

Malc

[KLR]

I have tried to get into the habit of referring to these things by what the WO called them (in all their various regulations etc):

Loops - these are either U shaped (as on eg a HPC) or stalked rings (as examples shown above). I have no idea where the term "lugs" originates from.

Vertical Shank - (introduced in 1903) a term used officially used up into the 1950s. This is what collectors call a "slider" - which seems to be used without any ambiguity or confusion.

I have no idea where the term "blades" comes from - but to my mind they are a perfect decription of the attachments on the back of OSD cap badges. (I have also heard them described as "tangs").
I have NEVER heard of them (certainly officially or - until now - unofficially) called "lugs" which is, as I say, a term I tend to avoid.

Not fixings but I can't find what the official term for the small projections on the back of eg a scroll that is brazed on to an upper part (eg on King's, Linc, W Yorks etc). I have commonly heard them described as "tags" but also, confusingly, as "lugs" !!!

Julian

[54Bty]

Just a quick one, 'tangs' are suppossed to be a lot longer and thinner than 'blades' the sort you find on the letter 'T' worn below the collar badge by Territorial Officers.

Now here are the Suffolk Regiment badges mentioned before. He wore three of the first badge and the second one was acquired after the war (WWI).

As we are all from different Nations and use different terms, maybe there should be a forum 'Badge terms index'?

[41st]

Originally Posted by David Douglas

May I ask where the authority comes from for saying that OFFICERS' COLLAR BADGES HAD LUGS (blades) ? In addition, the statement that officers would replace a broken cap badge with a collar badge BECAUSE THEY WERE THE SAME SIZE ? For the record, I disagree with both statements but will be corrected if the appropriate evidence is presented. In 45 years of collecting and cataloguing I cannot remember a single lugged (bladed) OSD collar badge and I know of no regiment where the OSD collar badge was the same size as the cap badge as an EXCLUSIVE design. I would welcome further comment but would urge the use of authority/evidence in support. A good topic. David

I will happily provide proof that at one stage Officers of the Welsh Regiment were wearing identical sized collar and cap badges, together with the relevant order. This relates only to certain battalions however.
I also have examples of OSD badges to the regiment with blades and loops,all with the 'S' spelling.
With regard to terminollogy for fixings, I agree with KLR.

[Malcolm Davey]

Originally Posted by Diehard

Malc,

thanks for the pics, I notice the Leinster collars are slightly lighter coloured
than the cap badge. Does that tend to be case with other regiments ?
Or is this just manufacturers variation ?

Cheers
Will

Hi Will
I believe its a combination of age and different manufacturer variations, if you look at my OSD album you will see badges with different shades of bronze.
Also here are some examples of full size OSD cap and collars for those that have never seen them before.

Malc

[Malcolm Davey]

Originally Posted by KLR

Not fixings but I can't find what the official term for the small projections on the back of eg a scroll that is brazed on to an upper part (eg on King's, Linc, W Yorks etc). I have commonly heard them described as "tags" but also, confusingly, as "lugs" !!!

Julian

Hi Julian
I refer to them as tabs,just to confuse you more

Malc

[KLR]

Thanks Malc for muddying the waters !
54's idea for a list of badge terminology is clearly a good idea !

Whilst on the colour of the bronze, it seems to me that they got darker in time, most of my earlier ones are a milk chocolate whilst 2WW ones are dark chocolate !

Yes I do have a King's OSD with loops, unusually E W on the back of the horse, but it's a 1st WW variation so that may account for "unorthodox" fixings !

[Diehard]

I've always used the term loops and not lugs. Thats what my uncle whos been collecting for donkeys years always calls them.

I've noticed some people tend to use loops only when describing HPCs fittings.

A glossary of terms is a good idea and would be useful, especially to new collectors.

Regards
Will

[Saddle tree maker]

Most OSD collars I've had have the smaller 'D' shaped lugs, would these be long enough to fit in the cap ?
STM.

[Diehard]

Malc,

Great collection of OSD you've got there.

I would appreciate your opinion on my picof the Middx 10th batn badge. Do you think its a collar ? I remember reading somewhere that the cap badge just has a plain scroll. The collars have a sort of 'hatched' pattern on the scroll, I'm assuming like mine.

Thanks

Will

[Luke H]

I'm with Malc on this one from my experience most (as there are always exceptions in this hobby) OSD badges which were made with intention for wear on the cap tended to have blades whereas those which were manufactured on the pretense of being collar badges worn on the uniform had lugs (loops if you're being techinally accurate... or pedantic). As the badges were in most cases highly similar if not identical in size a collar badge could be easily interchanged and worn on the cap and I'm sure this was done.
Its a bit similar to the KOYLI cap badge - if the bugle is facing the same direction as the cap badge but is lugged who can say categorically it was never worn on the cap despite its intended purpose when manufactured being for wear on the collar of the uniform.

Luke

[Diehard]

Originally Posted by Saddle tree maker

Most OSD collars I've had have the smaller 'D' shaped lugs, would these be long enough to fit in the cap ?
STM.

STM,

This is a good point. I've noticed with the collars I've got, the larger collar badges tend to have longer loops, closer in size to cap badges. The smaller types having proportionately smaller loops.

This adds to my confusion when trying to tell some collars from caps badges.

Will

[Saddle tree maker]

Will,
I am of the opinion that OSD cap badges had blades and the collar badges had lugs.
Different lugs are like different types of sliders - I think it's a manufacturing thing only.
I am unaware of any regiment requesting different length lugs, so I wouldn't worry too much, but I do think they are collar badges.
I have noticed with cavalry arm badges that the lugs vary in size and you would expect all sleeves to be the same thickness, but obviously they're not and so it may be that uniforms are not so uniform.
Different thickness in material where the badge was worn may explain the different lengths.
STM.

[Malcolm Davey]

Originally Posted by Diehard

Here are some pics and this is what I think they are

1. Cap badge Middx
2. Collar badge Middx
3. Collar badge Middx 10btn (but it was sold as a cap badge)

What do you think ?

Will

Hi Will
1 and 2 nice cap and collar OSD, the 10th i would say a collar, but the back of the blank scroll seems to have an imprint, i would have expected this to be smooth.
I may be wrong as i do not own a 10th OSD yet.

Malc

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by joachim

the back of the blank scroll seems to have an imprint, i would have expected this to be smooth.

Malc

Malc,

I thought the same could it be a converted die possibly like the long scroll HLI with then without the South Africa honour if I remember correctly?

Luke