VTC Lapel Badge

[Conductor]

Ny grand father was a Sgt in ther Rutland Volunteer Training Corps, one of the few that didn't become a service battalion of the county regiment. (Rutland refused to acknowlege the existance of the Leicestershire Regiment!!!) This meant that he wore the standard GS hat badge through out his service. According to Kipling & King there were two lapel badges worn, either in mufti or prior to the issue of uniforms. (KK 1595 and 1596)
Anyone out there know of their existance, have a spare and are willing to part with it/them for a realistic price?

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by Conductor

Ny grand father was a Sgt in ther Rutland Volunteer Training Corps, one of the few that didn't become a service battalion of the county regiment. (Rutland refused to acknowlege the existance of the Leicestershire Regiment!!!) This meant that he wore the standard GS hat badge through out his service. According to Kipling & King there were two lapel badges worn, either in mufti or prior to the issue of uniforms. (KK 1595 and 1596)
Anyone out there know of their existance, have a spare and are willing to part with it/them for a realistic price?

As far as I'm aware Sgt's didn't exist in the V.T.C., which were the forerunners of the 'Volunteer Force', which came into being in 1916, and it's during that period that Army ranks were adopted officially.

Rutlandshire went onto form a single battalion from it's V.T.C. units in 1916, which became the '1st Bn, Rutlandshire Volunteer Regiment'. Again it's during this period that the G.S. pattern cap badge was adopted, not before. Up until this time varied lapel and cap badges would have been worn by the individual V.T.C. units concerned and in some cases the general V.T.C. Association lapel badge was adopted as a cap badge.

Leicestershire as a seperate County had by 1916 formed three battalions of Volunteers.

'Service' Battalions have no connection with the V.T.C. or the later Volunteer Force - they are purely 'War Raised' units, raised in connection with County Regiments

[Alan O]

VTC regulations show the insignia for a Sgt was 2 rings and one disc. VTC had sgt as a rank. From VTC regulations revised Jan 1916

BADGES OF RANK.
99. Badges of Bank should be worn on both sleeves
below the elbow.
County Commandant
Regimental Commandant 5
Commandant - - 4
Sub-Commandant
Company Commander and
Squadron Commander
(National Motor
Volunteers) .
Platoon Commander and
Half Squadron Commander
Adjutant - - .
Quartermaster
Chaplain - - -
Medical Officer
Rings; 1 Plain and the
upper one an Austrian
Knot. For difference in
width of braid, see end
of paragraph.
Rings; 4 Plain and the
upper one an Austrian
Knot.
Rings; 3 Plain and the
upper one an Austrian
Knot.
Rings; 2 Plain and the
upper one an Austrian
Knot.
Rings; 1 Plain and the
upper one an Austrian
Knot.
1 Ring, with Austrian Knot.
According to Rank.
ditto,
ditto,
ditto.
NON-COMMISSIONED OFFICERS.
Regimental Sergeant- 4 Plain Rings with One Disc
Major an inch above the upper
Ring.
61
Regimental Quarter- 3 Plain Rings with One Disc
master Sergeant an inch above the upper
Ring.
Battalion Sergeant-Maj
or 4 Plain Rings.
Battalion Quartermaster- 3 Plain Rings.
Sergeant
Company Sergeant-Maj or 2 Plain Rings with Three
Discs an inch above and
parallel to upper Ring
and half-an-inch apart.
Company Quartermaster 2 Plain Rings with Two
Sergeant Discs as above.
Platoon Sergeant - - 2 Plain Rings and One Disc.
Section Commander, 2 Plain Rings.
ranking as Sergeant
Section Corporal - - 1 Plain Ring.
Note.—^^The Braid used for the rings must be for the
County Commandant IJ inches in width for the lower
ring only, the Austrian knot to be of the same size as for
other ranks ; in the case of other ranks th

[Conductor]

Thanks for the reply. It has caused me to look at the notes I have on my Grandfather's 'war' service. I can now see that I have got the VTC and the 1st Bn Rutland Volunteer Regiment, (Not RutlandSHIRE!) (Rutlanders HATE using that incorrect term!) confused. In the book 'Rutland and the Great War', by G. PHILLIPS there is a photo showing the Oakham Volunteer Training Corps in uniform. The cap badges ar not very clear and seem to be of different types, the one my Grandfather was wearing could well be the VTC Association lapel badge.
From 1916 onwards, as you say the VTC became a Volunteer Battalion and grandfather was one of the sergeants. He is shown on the roll on another page of the book. Another article mentions him as being responcible for the decorations at a Volunteers' smoking concernt held in April 1919. What a claim to fame!!! Bet he didn't get a medal.

[ncc]

the 1st batt rutland volunteer regiment was clothed by private subcription and wore a mid grey coloured uniform.
the officers had a horseshoe with regulation 'v' separately in it ,on the collars.
(the fore runner of the rutland home guard badge)
i doubt if the or's would have had collar badges but i have never had an or's jacket.
Bob

[Conductor]

Originally Posted by ncc

the 1st batt rutland volunteer regiment was clothed by private subcription and wore a mid grey coloured uniform.
the officers had a horseshoe with regulation 'v' separately in it ,on the collars.
(the fore runner of the rutland home guard badge)
i doubt if the or's would have had collar badges but i have never had an or's jacket.
Bob

I was suprised to read that the 1st Bn Rutland Volunteer Regt was clothed by private subscription in a mid grey uniform. I have a head & sholders photo of my Grandfather that shows him in what looks like the standard Service Dress uniform and a peak cap with the GS Cap badge. He is wearing shoulder titles but no collar badges. An earlier group photo, dated 1915, shows the Oakham Volunteer Training Coros where they are dressed in uniform wearing SD caps. The hat badges seem to be a mixed bunch.

Bob

[ncc]

in 1914 there was the leicestershire and rutland volunteer training association.
sometime in 1915 it seems that rutland went their own way.
probably the only way would have been self funding.
as rutland was covered by the leicestershire TA,the men joining the 5th leic.
lord ranksborough was the driving force behind the rutland volunteers.
the tunic was grey, different from the grey green worn by the LVR
its quite possible that the grey tunic dates from the vtc period and that in 1916
on the change over a v went on the collar and the royal arms badge in the cap.
just because they were self funded it dosen't mean that sometime later they weren't all neatly kitted out in kharki.but proof seems to be very illusive.
i would be interested to know what shoulder titles are worn on the head and shoulders photo that you mention.
Bob

[Conductor]

Bob, Thanks for the info. I have the photo and could send a copy if I can work out the system to do it!!!GES in Uniform.jpg

I think there is a good chance that I've suceeded!!

Bob

[Conductor]

I was that excited that I had managed to attach a photo that I forgot to say that I have just received a CD of the book Rutland and the Great war that I bought on ebay. Not read it yet but there ia a chapter on the Rutland VTC Volunteers.
At £6.49 lokks a bargin.

[Graham Stewart]

His shoulder title will be 'V/RUTLAND' in white worsted cotton as mentioned in Army Council Instruction 1936 of 10th October 1916(V.F. Order XX);-Badges of Rank, Cap Badge & Shoulder Titles
Para 3-
"The shoulder title will consist of the name of the Lieutenancy in which the Corps is raised, surmounted by a 'V', thus 'V/Kent'. No numeral or other distinction will be added. The badges will be woven and not made of metal."

[Graham Stewart]

1916 - ACI 2417.jpg

This V.F.Order from 24th December 1916, will answer your questions regarding uniform. He is in my mind wearing the "Serge Volunteer Force" uniform, as these were the uniforms with the embroided County titles.

[Conductor]

Thanks for all this info, only one problem I now have to find a V RUTLAND shoulder title for my collection!!!

Still it will keep be busy.

Bob

[ncc]

thanks for posting the photo,first one that i have seen which confirms they had the issue tunic with the 'v' s/title.
there is evidence that the leicesters didn't get them until late into 1918 and as there is a photo in the rutland book of an inspection in may '17 where almost all of them are in civies ,its probably the same with rutland.
to my knowledge no ww2 rutland hg tunic has ever turned up so i wish you luck in finding a 'v rutland' s/title from ww1.
Bob

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by ncc

thanks for posting the photo,first one that i have seen which confirms they had the issue tunic with the 'v' s/title.
there is evidence that the leicesters didn't get them until late into 1918 and as there is a photo in the rutland book of an inspection in may '17 where almost all of them are in civies ,its probably the same with rutland.
to my knowledge no ww2 rutland hg tunic has ever turned up so i wish you luck in finding a 'v rutland' s/title from ww1.
Bob

Leicester V.R.JPG
You guys are going to have to study the VTC/Volunteer Force more in depth and your primary source is your contemporary newspapers - some even contain a fortnightly editorial entitled either "V.T.C. Notes" or the later "Volunteer Notes". A Lot of later publications have photo's which are totally out of sync with period and their authors had difficulty in distinguishing who were VTC and who were Volunteer Force.

I can assure you that the Leicestershire Volunteer Regiment were in these uniforms long before 1917 and I've even attached a photo showing the uniform with the woven 'V/LEICESTER' title, complete with Royal Arms capbadge. Late 1918 saw a complete change in the organisation, and it's at this time the old pre-1908 Volunteer titles were re-adopted and they became 'Volunteer Battalions'. I have among my VTC/V.F. records the War Office publication showing all of the new titles and amalgamations, but these are back in the UK.

[ncc]

TAKEN FROM TERRITORIAL ASSOCIATION MINUTES


M.V. INCEPTION AT THE OUT BREAK OF THE WAR. APPLICATION PUT FORWARD TO BE KNOWN AS LEICESTER VOLUNTEER MOTOR CORP.2 SQUADRONS, HEAVY SQUADRON AND LIGHT SQUADRON.
208 MEN 24 MOTOR LORRIES,64 LIGHT MOTOR CARS + MOTOR CYCLISTS.

FEB 1917
REPORT FROM SARSON.
IN THE COUNTY THERE ARE SOMETHING LIKE 48 DIFFERENT UNITS.
L.V.R MOUNTED SECTION NOT TO BE ALLOWED.
NO M.V.C. IN THE COUNTY.
ALREADY DRAWN 600 SETS OF EQUIPMENT
270 SHOTGUNS + AMMO
808 BLUE GREY OVERCOATS.
UNIFORMS TO BE MADE OF SPECIAL CLOTH ABOUT WHICH NO INSTRUCTIONS RECEIVED.


JULY 1917 REPORT.
SINCE OUR LAST REPORT OF MAY 1917 THE SPLITTING OF LEICESTER BATTALION INTO 1ST/1ST + 2ND /1ST ALLOWED
2ND /1ST TO COMPRISE OF ALL ‘B’ SECTION MEN.
RUTLAND MOTOR VOLUNTEERS CONSISTS OF 4 OFFICERS & 9 MEN
LETTER FROM WAR OFFICE AFTER VOLUNTEER INSPECTION DATED JUNE 29 1917.
IT WAS NOTED THAT THERE WAS ONLY A VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF MEN IN UNIFORM CONTRARY TO ARMY COUNCIL INSTRUCTIONS 308 ,548,580 OF 1917.
BUT ALSO THE CLOTH IS NOT READILY AVAILABLE.


17 FEB 1918 REPORT
ANOTHER INSPECTION STILL FEW MEN IN UNIFORM.
LATER IN MINUTES (NO DATE) NOW CLOTHED 869 MEN. CLOTH ORDERED AND WITH LEICESTER TAILORS TO CLOTHE 2000 MEN.

18TH MAY 1918 LVR TO BECOME 1ST 2ND 3RD 4TH VOL BATTS LEICESTERSHIRE REGT.


SPECIAL SERVICE COMPANIES FOR DUTY AT THE COAST
28TH COMPANY 3RD &4TH VOL BATT.LEIC REGT.
29TH COMPANY 1ST BATT RUTLAND VOL.REGT.
30TH COMPANY 1ST & 2ND VOL. BATT. LEIC. REGT.

unfortunately nothing more mentioned about volunteers or uniforms.

i can't see why, if they are talking about 1902 pattern tunics they refer to special cloth and having them made as presumably they would get them from army contractors.
i believe they are talking about the grey green vtc type cloth.
but either way in feb 1918 very few of the men were in uniform.
and from the rutland photo you can see that not many men are in uniform in 1917.
(forget the bowlers they are specials and look at the men in the background)
is your photo is dated 1916 ?
there is also a similar photo in existence with 'i thought i would get photographed in my new karki uniform before i have to hand it in 'written on the back.
Bob