Pre-WWI, Canadian Grenadier Guards or Winnipeg Grenadiers?

[mconrad]

A group photo. No markings or notations on the back.



Now, I suspect Canadian Grenadier Guards, but could it also be the Winnipeg Grenadiers? I think not fusiliers - the grenade flame is the big kind. Can't make out the shoulder strap brass. Notice the metal edge to the cap visors. There's a guy in a pillbox hat in the background.












And what is this badge?

[John S.]

Hi;
I would guess Winnipeg Grenadiers.
The O/R collar badges are of a pattern that I believe are to the 100th Winnipeg Grenadiers.
The officer in a frock coat is wearing an embroidered badge that is unfamiliar to me- perhaps someone can ID that one?
Cheers,
John S.

[Bill A]

Hi John, Didn't the 100th Winnipeg Grenadiers wear a grenade ball with a design and a scroll under the grenade?
The CGG did wear a plain grenade badge pre 1914.

[mconrad]

Originally Posted by Bill A

Hi John, Didn't the 100th Winnipeg Grenadiers wear a grenade ball with a design and a scroll under the grenade?
The CGG did wear a plain grenade badge pre 1914.

I think the ball of the grenade is plain here. Either plain or the light reflection is wiping out all trace of a design.

[mconrad]

Thinking of the possible shoulder strap titles ("1", "62" or "66" for fusiliers, "GG" over "Canada"), I think "100" looks like the best fit to the blurred images here. That tends to the Winnipeg Grenadiers.

Second reason for Winnipeg vice Grenadier Guards - this group looks a little uneven. Would that be more likely for a provincial unit from Winnipeg, or an metropolitan unit like the Guards in Montreal? Or is this stretching things too far?

[John S.]

Bill:
The 100th Winnipeg Grenadier badge with the number on the grenade ball and title below the grenade ball, was authorized by G.O. 58 of 1913. The Regiment was raised as the 100th Regiment on April 8, 1908, changing to the 100th Winnipeg Grenadiers on May 2, 1910. Question is what did the Regiment wear up to around 1913? Since the Winnipeg Grenadiers very much wanted to emulate the Imperial Grenadier Guards in dress and insignia, I believe that initially, a plain grenade of the Grenadier Guards pattern would have been taken into use, at least up until around 1913.
Interestingly, I have in my possession photos of the Winnipeg Grenadiers wearing a plain type of grenade as their hat badge, circa 1939, which is not the pattern worn as normally accepted for the Winnipeg Grenadiers during WWII. Perhaps the Regiment preferred wearing the British style of grenade?
I agree with mconrad- the people pictured don`t appear to be as immaculate
in their appearance as might be expected from members of a Guards Regiment, IMO.
Perhaps some folks from Winnipeg can comment on this further?
Cheers,
John S.

[mconrad]

I have separately obtained a photo identical in size, mounting, and scene, with just different soldiers but of the same location, time, and unit. In this second photo the shoulder straps clearly bear a metal "RG", thus the 10th Regiment Royal Grenadiers, of Toronto, latter (1939) The Royal Regiment of Canada. The officers wear an embroidered badge vice the lower ranks grenade. The bottom of the embroidered badge would be the motto "Ready Aye Ready." So both my initial guesses as to regimental identity were wrong!

[John S.]

Hi;
The photo is certainly of the 10th Royal Grenadiers from Toronto.
The fact that they are wearing plain grenades on their forage caps, in addition to the style of uniform that they are wearing suggests to me that the photo dates from before WWI, possibly in the 1905-12 era. I am aware that the 10th wore a plain grenade as a hat badge, of the Imperial Grenadier Guards pattern during this time, but perhaps some specialists who collect Royal Grenadier insignia can shed further light on this.
Cheers,
John S.

[Bill A]

Mazeas does not list a plain grenade badge for the 10th. There is a badge with a "10" that may not show in the images due to the effect of light / photographic technique.
There may have been a plain grenade that is not documented in the Mazeas catalogue.

[fyrftr422]

10th RG certainly did wear a plain grenade as late as 1913-1915 as evidenced by these photos.

[Resaw]

Originally Posted by John S.

Hi;
The photo is certainly of the 10th Royal Grenadiers from Toronto.
The fact that they are wearing plain grenades on their forage caps, in addition to the style of uniform that they are wearing suggests to me that the photo dates from before WWI, possibly in the 1905-12 era. I am aware that the 10th wore a plain grenade as a hat badge, of the Imperial Grenadier Guards pattern during this time, but perhaps some specialists who collect Royal Grenadier insignia can shed further light on this.
Cheers,
John S.

John, you are right about the time period you suggest. This Regiment did, indeed, wear a seventeen pointed fusilier bomb without the '10' during this period. As far as I can tell, these were made by Ellis Bros. of Toronto, although the badges were not maker marked (the flame design is identical to the Ellis marked badge with the '10' produced earlier, but it differs from the Gaunt Montreal flame design).

As Bill points out, Mazeas did not attribute this badge to the 10th RG, which was an error.

Also to assist with dating this photo, the men are armed with Ross rifles, the first of which were issued in 1905.

Dan

p.s. I believe that the soldier in the photo posted by FYRFTR422 was Sam Martindale of the 10th Royal Grenadiers.

[fyrftr422]

Originally Posted by Resaw

p.s. I believe that the soldier in the photo posted by FYRFTR422 was Sam Martindale of the 10th Royal Grenadiers.

Yes, sorry, should have stated that. It is Samuel Martindale (My Wife's Great Grandfather - #404400 of the Royal Montreal Regiment during the war) of the 10th Royal Grenadiers who was with that unit for approx 2 years, 1913 till he enlisted with the 35th Battalion in the spring of 1915.