WW2 RN Insignia

[Leonard D]

Hello Gents, I have of late been researching my fathers RN service. He was a 15 year veteran (1933 - 48) I am not overly familiar with RN insignia worn during WW2. It would consequently be appreciated if one of the Naval Guru's out there could please let me know what insignia would have been worn as a Torpedo Gunners Mate (PO) and Torpedo Instructor (CPO)
Thanks in advance.
Len.

[RCN]

Len I have shown below the 1WW Torpedo Gunners Mate rate,

the rate for the 2WW period likely worn by your father would have had the crown above & one star below the crossed torpedos.

I don't seem to have a photo on file of the TGM 2WW badge but someone will post I am certain.

RCN Bryan

[RCN]

Len here is a photo of TGM rate badges taken from my album -

The TGM rates are second column from right. As a PO he would have worn the badge at the bottom of that column.

I don't think the Torpedo Instructor had a specific rate for the 2WW period,

RCN Bryan

[Leonard D]

Bryan, cheers for that. Would this rate have been worn in addition to the Fouled Anchor device for PO's or in lieu of?
Again my thanks.
Len.

[RCN]

Yes Len,
Your father would have worn the PO rank insignia on his left arm above any GCB's(Good Conduct badges) he may have been awarded, & on his right arm his TGM rate.

RCN Bryan

[Leonard D]

Bryan, appreciate the prompt response. Apart from eBay would there be any other source where decent original examples of these insignia could be acquired. I have both my Dad's PO and CPO cap badges and the rates would be welcome additions.
Thanks.
Len.

[GTB]

Originally Posted by RCN

Len here is a photo of TGM rate badges taken from my album -

The TGM rates are second column from right. As a PO he would have worn the badge at the bottom of that column.

I don't think the Torpedo Instructor had a specific rate for the 2WW period,

RCN Bryan

Here is a pic of the TGM badge as worn on white (tropical) uniform.
Bryan, I notice album badges almost exclusively red and gold types. Did the RCN wear whites at all?
Cheers
GTB

[RCN]

Originally Posted by Leonard D

Bryan, appreciate the prompt response. Apart from eBay would there be any other source where decent original examples of these insignia could be acquired. I have both my Dad's PO and CPO cap badges and the rates would be welcome additions.
Thanks.
Len.

Len ebay is your best source for the PO rank badge. I see them regularly but the asking prices really vary. Over here they are about a $5 badge for the red version.

Your father would have worn the PO badge similar to the example I have shown below - he may not have had 3 GCB's if he was wartime only, perhaps you know what GCB's he might have been entitled to. The crossed anchor & crown badge he would have worn on his LEFT sleeve. I have several of these & could send you one - just PM me yr home address & I will have it off to you via mail.

The TGM rate badge is very hard to obtain. I have never seen one on ebay for a long long time. I don't know why its so rare as there must have been a lot of TGM's in 2WW. The only red example I have was worn by an RCN TGM in 2WW & its mounted with the his medals, photo etc. You might be able to obtain one at one of the many medal/badge shows over in UK.

Hope this helps you somewhat,
RCN Bryan

[RCN]

Originally Posted by GTB

Here is a pic of the TGM badge as worn on white (tropical) uniform.
Bryan, I notice album badges almost exclusively red and gold types. Did the RCN wear whites at all?
Cheers
GTB

Yes definitely! Exactly same pattern/style & rank/rates as RN. Only way to know an RCN rating/Officer from an RN in 2WW was the RCN officer/men wore CANADA shoulder flashes & CANADA on their buttons. Also of course, for ratings the HMCS cap ribbon.
But saying that, the CANADA shoulder flashes were not mandatory until 1943, & many ratings whilst under training in UK (& there were a lot of them in the interwar & early yrs of 2WW at Vernon, Excellent, Dryad, & the big bases) wore HMS cap ribbons, so prior to that I guess only way to tell an Canadian was the strange way some of them spoke English!

I will attach the TGM rate worn on white uniform by the PO/CPO I mentioned in my last post. Its identical to the example you have shown.

RCN Bryan

[RCN]

Originally Posted by Leonard D

Bryan, appreciate the prompt response. Apart from eBay would there be any other source where decent original examples of these insignia could be acquired. I have both my Dad's PO and CPO cap badges and the rates would be welcome additions.
Thanks.
Len.

Len when you father was a CPO he would not have worn any embroidered rank badge as he would have worn as a PO. As a CPO he would have worn on each cuff sleeve three brass buttons, this was his CPO ranking.
I have shown the 3 sleeve buttons that an RCN CPO would have worn in 2 WW.

His rate (TGM) badges he would have worn on the two lapels of his tunic. I have shown two closeup photos below of how these CPO rate badges were worn by CPO TI & GI (Torpedo & Gunnery Instructor) circa turn of the C & 1WW periods.
That rate badge would have been identical to the red/gold/blue version but might have been somewhat smaller, as shown in my frame in a previous post.

RCN Bryan

[GTB]

Originally Posted by RCN

I will attach the TGM rate worn on white uniform by the PO/CPO I mentioned in my last post. Its identical to the example you have shown.

RCN Bryan

More than identical! Even the rfu badge edge foldings are identical and for a moment I thought it was my badge that had been reattached. Small world.
GTB

[RCN]

Ain't it special mate!
Not identical tho - think different manufacturer - note crowns & torps are not 100% alike, but pretty d***d close!

Mine was worn also. I have all three of his - blue, red & gold.

RCN B

[GTB]

Great thing to have provenance.
Yes, I did notice minor discrepancies especially with the Crown. If it's any help, here's the back
GTB

[Leonard D]

Bryan, I would like to extend my thanks for your kind assistance in my quest for information on the subject in question. My father passed away a decade ago and I oftentimes wish I had discussed this with him in more detail. He was however for the most part reluctant to relive his war time experiences.
Sadly following his passing, many items, medals, photo's and the like disappeared. I do however have his Service Record and Torpedo History Sheet.
I note that 2 GCB's we granted. He held the rank of PO/CPO from 1941 to 1948 being TGM/TI until 1947 when he became an Instructor, Low Power Electrics.
It is disappointing to learn that the TGM insignia is not readily available. I appreciate your generous offer of a PO Fouled Anchor device and will PM in this regard.
Once again my thanks.
Len.

[RCN]

Very pleased to have been able to assist you Len. I get many requests at shows over here from collectors looking to obtain badges, medals, etc for their fathers who served in 2WW. I also get uniform requests also!
I see from yr first post yr father served from 1833-48, I was thinking about that last nite & guessed if he came in as a Boy (& many of them did) & turned 18 in '36, then his first engagement would have been up in '48, then he would have been awarded 2 GCB's (as you confirm). But as a CPO he would not have worn GCB's.

His Service record should give his medal entitlement but if not , you could write to the MOD(Navy) & find out what he was entitled to & might even be able to secure replacement 2WW medals to add to your display.

Pls take a fw shots of it when you have it complete & post - I know I would like to see yr display completed.

Best wishes!
Bryan