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  #16  
Old 11-12-08, 10:30 PM
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I have the collars in a matched pair.

Phil
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  #17  
Old 13-12-08, 03:41 PM
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Default Mazeas Enhanced Reference

The "Cross" numbering allows for a reasonable reference. It would be quite an undertaking for forum members to come up with a matching reference for Mazeas- Might be a challenge but fun!!!

My "kick at the cat""
Hat Badge
S.4 "Canadian Signal Corps"
S.4.001 OR_Brass_Non-Voided Crown_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.002 OR_Brass_Non-Voided Crown_Slide_Unknown
S.4.003 OR_Brass_Voided Crown_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.004 OR_Brass_Voided Crown_Slide_Unknown
Officers/WO1
S.4.010 OSD_Non-Voided Crown_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.011 OSD_Non-Voided Crown_Slide_Unknown
S.4.012 Gilt/Enamel_Voided Crown_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.013 Gilt/Enamel_Voided Crown_Slide_Unknown
Collars

S.4.020 OR_Brass_Non-Voided Crown_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.021 OR_Brass_Voided Crown_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.022 OR_Brass_Voided Crown_Lugs_Sculley
Officers/WO1
S.4.030 OSD_Non-Voided Crown_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.031 OSD_Voided Crown_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.032 Gilt/Enamel_Voided Crown_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.033 Gilt/Enamel_Non-Voided Crown_Lugs_Unknown

Shoulder Title
S.4.040 Brass_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.041 Brass_Lugs_Sculley

Busby
S.4.050 Brass_Unknown

This still needs work but it is an example of what might be required

Larry
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  #18  
Old 13-12-08, 08:11 PM
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Larry Interesting approach. Would it be simpler to use a secondary alpha character for the various badges? For example, Sh 4 where the S is the Mazeas catalogue for corps / services, the "h" would indicate cap or headdress badge, and then the number. The collars could be "c" and the metal shoulder titles "t". It could even allow for "e" embroidered and "p" printed cloth shoulder titles. Officer's cap badges and WO's similarly, could be "o" and "wo". So your S.4.001 would be Sh4.1 brass, unvoided crown,lugs unknown.
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  #19  
Old 13-12-08, 08:45 PM
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Default An example

No. Insignia Rank Comments
S.4 "Canadian Signal Corps"
S.4.001 Hat Badge OR Brass_Non-Voided Crown_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.002 Brass_Non-Voided Crown_Slide_Unknown
S.4.003 Brass_Voided Crown_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.004 Brass_Voided Crown_Slide_Unknown
Officers/WO1
S.4.010 OSD_Non-Voided Crown_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.011 OSD_Non-Voided Crown_Slide_Unknown
S.4.012 Gilt/Enamel_Voided_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.013 Gilt/Enamel_Voided_Slide_Unknown
Collars

S.4.020 OR Brass_Non-Voided Crown_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.021 OR_Brass_Voided Crown_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.022 OR_Brass_Voided Crown_Lugs_Sculley
Officers/WO1
S.4.030 OSD_Non-Voided Crown_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.031 OSD_Voided Crown_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.032 Gilt/Enamel_Voided Crown_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.033 Gilt/Enamel_Non-Voided Crown_Lugs_Unknown

Shoulder Title
S.4.040 Brass_Lugs_Unknown
S.4.041 Brass_Lugs_Sculley

Busby
S.4.050 Brass_Unknown
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  #20  
Old 13-12-08, 10:57 PM
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Default Larry's system

S.4 "Canadian Signal Corps"
Ref No. Insignia Rank Comments
S.4.001 Cap OR Brass; Solid; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.002 Brass; Solid; Slide; Unknown
S.4.003 Brass; Voided; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.004 Brass; Voided ; Slide; Unknown
S.4.010 Officers/WO1 OSD; Solid; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.011 OSD; Solid; Slide; Unknown
S.4.012 OSD; Solid; Slide; W.M. Scully
S.4.015 Gilt/Enamel; Solid; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.016 Gilt/Enamel; Solid; Slide; Unknown
S.4.017 Gilt/Enamel; Solid; Slide; W.M. Scully
S.4.020 Collars OR Brass; Solid; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.021 Brass; Void; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.022 Brass; Voided; Lugs; Scully
S.4.025 Officers/WO1 OSD; Solid; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.026 OSD; Voided; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.027 Gilt/Enamel; Voided; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.028 Gilt/Enamel; Solid; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.030 Shoulder Title OR “Canadian Signal Corps” Brass; Unknown
S.4.031 “C.S.C.”; Brass; Scully
S.4.032 “C.S.C.”; Brass; P.W. Ellis
S.4.045 Busby Brass; Unknown
S.4.055 Button Brass; Gaunt
s.4.056 Silver; Smith&Wright

Main Ref: Based upon Mazeas system
This could be the “Format” for all units:

xx. 001 thru 009 OR Cap Badge.
xx. 010 thru 019 Officer Cap Badge
xx. 020 thru 025 OR Collar
xx. 025 thru 030 Officer Collar
xx. 031 thru 035 OR Shoulder Title
xx. 035 thru 040 Officer Shoulder Title
xx. 041 thru 045 Busby
xx. 045 thru 050 Piper
xx. 051 thru 055 Button
xx. 060 Sweetheart

xx. 075 Cloth

Question :
1. How many Corps/Regts had OSD and Gilt/Enamel badges for Officers/WO1?
2. Is the fact that the “Crown” is solid or Void a variant?
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  #21  
Old 14-12-08, 07:23 PM
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Default Alpha-numeric system

Here is an alpha numeric system.
S.4 "Canadian Signal Corps" h=headdress badge, c=collar badge, t=title, e=embroidered shoulder title, p=printed shoulder title
Ref No. Insignia Rank Comments
S.4.001 or S4h.1 Cap OR Brass; Solid; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.002 or S4h.2 Brass; Solid; Slide; Unknown
S.4.003 or S4h.3 Brass; Voided; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.004 or S4h.4 Brass; Voided ; Slide; Unknown
S.4.010 or S4ho.1 Officers/WO1 OSD; Solid; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.011 or S4ho.2 OSD; Solid; Slide; Unknown
S.4.012 or S4ho.3 OSD; Solid; Slide; W.M. Scully
S.4.015 or S4ho.4 Gilt/Enamel; Solid; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.016 or S4ho.5 Gilt/Enamel; Solid; Slide; Unknown
S.4.017 or S4ho.6 Gilt/Enamel; Solid; Slide; W.M. Scully
S.4.020 or S4c.1 Collars OR Brass; Solid; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.021 or S4c.2 Brass; Void; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.022 or S4c.3 Brass; Voided; Lugs; Scully
S.4.025 or S4co.1 Officers/WO1 OSD; Solid; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.026 or S4co.2 OSD; Voided; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.027 or S4co.3 Gilt/Enamel; Voided; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.028 or S4co.4 Gilt/Enamel; Solid; Lugs; Unknown
S.4.030 or S4t.1 Shoulder Title OR “Canadian Signal Corps” Brass; Unknown
S.4.031 or S4t.2 “C.S.C.”; Brass; Scully
S.4.032 or S4t.3 “C.S.C.”; Brass; P.W. Ellis


Main Reference is Based upon the Mazeas system. The alpha numeric approach leaves the numbering open ended.
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  #22  
Old 15-12-08, 05:57 AM
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The alpha numeric system would work better for you. The GRVI Service Corps has more distinct officers patterns than the ten designators provided in the straight numeric proposal.
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  #23  
Old 15-12-08, 06:12 AM
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Default my kick at the errors can

[LIST][*]S22 - KC Provost collars do not face (generally speaking)
  • S33 - CWVSC collars shown are incorrect to the cap badge
  • C11a - PLDG maple leaf collars omitted
  • C22 / C23 - Manitoba Dragoons shoulder titles are transposed; the MD title belongs with the later badge, the football shaped title with the earlier badge.
  • C44a - BC Horse. The illustration is a collar badge. Full size cap badges were worn.
  • M31 / M32 - Motto is missing from the Argyl Light Infantry badges
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  #24  
Old 24-12-08, 06:22 PM
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Hello Doug,
1. I have never seen a "matched" pair of kc Canadian Provost Corps collars. Do you have a pair?
2. Do you have an image of the PLDG's maple leaf collars?
3. Doug, what is your reference for the swap on these?
4. Thanks for pointing that one out.
5. Question, is there a ALI without the Nulli Secundus motto? Or, Mazeas made an error on these illustrations. (That would have most of us chasing an imaginary badge...)
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  #25  
Old 24-12-08, 06:34 PM
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Actually, C44a is the Pre-1914 Victoria Independent Squadron and should not be in the 1920-1950 book.
The same goes for C45 which is the badge that was worn by the 1st and 2nd Regiments BC Horse prior to the formation of the 30th BC Horse and 31st BC Horse.

Phil
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  #26  
Old 24-12-08, 06:46 PM
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Dwayne is right about the Perth collars, they do face the same way because they are using the offical Perth County crest & couldn't change it.
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  #27  
Old 24-12-08, 07:25 PM
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Phil, Mazeas shows the C45 badge in both the Pre-1914 book and the 20-50 book. It should only be in the Pre-14 book? The GO's refs in the pre-1914 book must be in error, as he has the C45 badge approved after the 30th was approved and before the 31st was approved?
Ray, Thanks for the explanation on why the collars must stay the same and not reverse for the opposite sides.
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  #28  
Old 28-12-08, 02:59 AM
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Reference The British Columbia Horse

Here is the General Order for MC49

GO 37 /April 1910
British Columbia Horse

5. Badges as described hereunder, are authorized

Cap badge.

A wreath of fir boughs in the form of an 8 pointed star surmounted by the Imperial crown, the points of the star being formed by the protrusion of a cactus stem; across the bottom, a scroll in scribed “BRITISH COLUMBIA HORSE”. In the centre a circle bearing the motto “QUANSEM ILEP” enclosing a cougar couchant on a rock foreground, with a background of fir trees. Height 1 ½ inches.
Metal-Gilt or gilding metal, central figure of cougar on rock foreground to be in silver or white metal.

Collar badge.

Same as cap badge. Height 1 ¼ inches.
Metal-As for cap badge.


Helmet plate.

Same design as for cap badge. Height 4 ¼ inches.
Metal-As for cap badge. (H.Q. 6-10-4)




The following is from RH Roy's Sinews of Steel Page 464
The earliest badge worn by the unit had been designed originally for the Kamloops squadron by Mr. E.H. Drummond.1 It was in the shape of an eight-pointed star composed of the tops of fir boughs, the tips of which were cactus flower buds. The topmost points were surmounted by an Imperial crown. An annulus centre had the motto Quanasum Elip, meaning “Always First” in the Chinook tongue. The annulus enclosed a couchant cougar dexter with an open background broken by fir trees. A scroll supported by the four lower points read “British Columbia Horse”.2 When the 30th B.C. Horse was authorized in 1911, it adopted this badge adding one or two changes. The open centre of the annulus vanished and a cougar couchant, crouching on a rocky ledge, overlapped the annulus. The spelling of the motto changed to “Quansum Ilep”. A smaller version of the cap badge served as collar badges, and metal shoulder badges reading”30 B C HORSE” were adopted also.

1.Personal correspondence , Mr. H.T. Wilson to author, 17 April, 1961
2 Ibid.; P.A.B.C., Fyle O,B,B64, Vol. 1, W.R. Bone, “Notes on Badges of Western Canadian Military and Semi-Military Units, 1949”. See also General Order No. 37, 1 April 1910.



Finally, here is the entry from WR Bone's book. I believe that he relied on anecdotal evidence, and as he published in 1949, he was able to speak to people who had worn the badges.

Genesis of The British Columbia Dragoons is found in the British Columbia Horse formed in the Okanagan Valley in the post-Boer War period when the era of mounted fighting man was at its zenith.
The first issue of cap and collars (officers’, silver and men’s, brass) was in the form of an eight-pointed star composed of the tops of fir trees. The topmost points supported a crown. An annulus centre inscribed “Quanasum Elip”* enclosed a couchant cougar dexter in silver with an open background broken by fir trees. A scroll supported by the four lower points read “British Columbia Horse”.
With the growth of the unit, the 30th and 31st (see B.C. Hussars) British Columbia Horse came into being and the 30th continued to use a badge on a similar line to the original. It varied, however, in that the open centre vanished and a cougar sinister, crouching on a rocky ledge, overlapped the annulus. On this badge the motto read “Quansem Ilep”.

* Despite the variation in spelling, both this motto and the one on the second issue mean “Always First”. Taken from the phonetic Chinook tongue, the actual spelling appears to rest with the individual.



Now, here are my observations:
Ref Mazeas Canadian Militia Badges Pre 1914

MC.49 Mazeas attributes this badge to the 30th BC Horse. In some ways, it follows the description in the General Orders, however, the cap badge is 2 inches tall.

I have photographic evidence of the MC.49 collar badge being worn as a cap badge, as well as the MC.50 cap badge being worn by the 31st BC Horse.
Ref: A Short History of the 31st British Columbia Horse By Flick.

There are some discrepencies.
MC.50 does not have the cactus buds, whereas MC49 does.
The sizes in the General Order for 1910 correspond to the sizes of MC.50
The spelling of the motto in the General Order corresponds to MC.49, rather than MC.50.

I believe MC.50 to be The British Columbia Horse
The cap badge is 1 1/2 inches high
The collar badge is 1 1/4 inches high.

I think that both MC.49 and MC.50 were worn by The British Columbia Horse.
What is important, is that these badges were authorized in 1910, whereas the 1st and 2nd Regiments, British Columbia Horse did not become the 30th BC Horse and 31st BC Horse respectively until 1912 - G.O. 74/1912.

Phil
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  #29  
Old 28-12-08, 05:30 AM
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So - who's going to write the 1920-1950 badge book? I know a publisher who would be interested.
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  #30  
Old 28-12-08, 01:53 PM
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Default 13th Scottish

So does C.24 belong in the 1920-1950 book? The quoted GO is from 1906 and it is already in the pre-1914 book. My thoughts are - The unit is active in 1920, the badge is worn and has not been changed - so it is a badge of the 1920 period. Having the GO quoted gives the info that there was not a change to the design over the years. My problem is that I have "just" one of the badge, so I register it under pre-1920 and display it in that collection. What I really need is another example of the badge with a markers mark and a date on it after 1920.
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