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  #1  
Old 26-11-08, 01:57 PM
Donny B. Donny B. is offline
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Default Unofficial collar badges: 10th Light Horse

In his book "Australian Army Badges, Part 2, 1900 - 1930", Cossum illustrates a pair of 10th Light Horse collar badges on page 54 of the "Unofficial A.I.F. 1912 - 1918" section. A similar badge is sketched on the Australian Light Horse Association website and is described as "Unofficial 1914".

Is anyone able to give any background information on these "unofficial" collar badges. How and why were they distributed? When were they worn? Were they in fact worn in 1914 instead of or as well as the General Service badge. Is there an "unofficial" hat badge that goes with these collar badges. I believe the same collar badge is illustrated in the book "Westralian Cavalry" or some similar book.

Any information would be appreciated.

Donny B.

Last edited by Donny B.; 26-11-08 at 02:39 PM. Reason: Book title given incorrectly
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  #2  
Old 26-11-08, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny B. View Post
In his book "Australian Army Badges, Part 2, 1900 - 1930", Cossum illustrates a pair of 10th Light Horse collar badges on page 54 of the "Unofficial A.I.F. 1912 - 1918" section. A similar badge is sketched on the Australian Light Horse Association website and is described as "Unofficial 1914".

Is anyone able to give any background information on these "unofficial" collar badges. How and why were they distributed? When were they worn? Were they in fact worn in 1914 instead of or as well as the General Service badge. Is there an "unofficial" hat badge that goes with these collar badges. I believe the same collar badge is illustrated in the book "Westralian Cavalry" or some similar book.

Any information would be appreciated.

Donny B.
hi donny
it would be hard in my opinion to accuraetly date these badges but it would seem they were issued around the 1912-14 period. they were never an official badge but private unit order, most i have seen with the gaunt tab on reverse. there was no hat badge made, but it would be easy to think the R collar being worn on the officers cap.
australians officially didnt wear any other other badges to war other than the rising sun hat and collars. thats not to say that the individual unit badges were not worn unofficialy. there is a few pics of troops in egypt of officers wearing there 10th LHR collars.
i even picked up a superb ww1 hate/souvineer belt once, with some fantastic commonwealth officer bronze badges with 2 officers australian unit badges. one enameled victorian rifles badge and another west australian rifles stg silver hat and collar badge
bc
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  #3  
Old 26-11-08, 11:02 PM
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Hi Donny,

I believe the unofficial Gaunt made 10th Light Horse collars were made between 1916 and 1918. They were privately purchased using regimental funds. There is no unofficial hat badge and most of them would have worn the General Service Badge aka Rising Sun Badge.

I might have some info at home and will check when I'm home from work.

Mick
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  #4  
Old 27-11-08, 07:48 AM
Donny B. Donny B. is offline
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Thanks, guys, for a couple of quick replies and the info. I am just developing an interest in badges after collecting extensively in other areas. I am becoming particularly keen on West Australian badges. My reference material helps me identify the badges fairly readily but I have nothing that seems to give any history or background on the badges

I guess I had always had the notion that the 10th Light Horse simply wore the General Service badge in 1914 so I was surprised to to see those "unofficial" badges dated so early. I think they are much more impressive than the "official" collar badges of the 1930/42 series.

I need to get hold of some pictures of badges being worn. That picture of yours, of the bugler, shows the badge off beautifully, Mick.

Donny B.
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  #5  
Old 27-11-08, 11:49 AM
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Also, let's not forget that prior to 1912 the 10th Light Horse Regiment was a Victorian unit and after the 1911 reforms the 10th number, although allocated to Victoria, was not raised as a unit. The 10th Light Horse (AIF) was quite a different regiment raised in Western Australia in 1914. Prior to 1911 the Western Australian Light Horse unit was the 18th Light Horse and after the 1911 reforms became the 25th Light Horse (AMF). The AMF although composed of part time units was effectively the Australian Army prior to the Great War and still existed throughout the war.

The AIF was quite a separate force to the AMF. The AIF was a fully volunteer force raised for service overseas as, by law, the AMF could only serve within Australia. After the Great War the 10th title was retained by Western Australia in line with perpetuating the traditions of the AIF in the part time force (AMF) when the 1911 AMF numbering system was done away with and replaced by a new system using the AIF numbers as per the States the AIF units were primarily drawn from.


In the same vein, for infantry after the 1911 reforms Western Australia had the 84th (Goldfields Regiment), 86th (Western Australian Rifles) and 88th (Perth Infantry) Regiments with the 85th and 87th numbers being allocated to WA but not raised as units. After the Great War the AMF units in WA took on the numbers of some of the Western Australian AIF battalions ie 11th, 16th, 28th and 44th.

Thus the collar badges being discussed could not have been made prior to 1914; they are of the Western Australian 10th Light Horse. Whether they were an unofficial AIF badge or the 10th Light Horse AMF after the Great War I am not sure. I strongly suspect the latter as they are the same as the post war 10th Light Horse badge. In 1914 the 10th LH AIF did not have a unit collar badge. They wore the GS collar badge or at least my great uncle did in his portrait taken prior to sailing in Feb 1915. I have not seen any photos to date of 10 LH (AIF) men wearing a distinctive unit collar badge. If anyone has it would be good to see it.

Cheers
Chris

Last edited by Chrisr; 27-11-08 at 12:16 PM.
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  #6  
Old 27-11-08, 08:25 PM
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Hi Chris,

I thought I'd grab my copy of the Westralian Cavalry at War and look up to see if there are any pictures of the badge being worn.

I found a couple of interesting pictures - one of LT-COL Noel Brazier wearing what appears to be unofficial collar badges with a small Rising Sun Badge on his cap.

In the supplement at the back, John Burridge has stated that there were 2 variations of the collar badge - voided and non voided. I'll try and scan the pictures when I get a chance.

Mick
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Old 28-11-08, 12:03 PM
Donny B. Donny B. is offline
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Chris said:
(Thus the collar badges being discussed could not have been made prior to 1914; they are of the Western Australian 10th Light Horse. Whether they were an unofficial AIF badge or the 10th Light Horse AMF after the Great War I am not sure. I strongly suspect the latter as they are the same as the post war 10th Light Horse badge.)




Thanks for your input, Chris. A lot of background information that I need and appreciate if I am going to be able to "understand' my badges. However the "unofficial" badges I was asking about are not the same as the 10th L H badge. They are the ones that Cossum illustrates on page 54 of his Part 2 book and describes as "unofficial". On page 8 of his Part One he illustrates a 10th L H hat badge (of the 1930/42 series) with a matching (similar to the hat badge) collar badge.


Anyway. Here are a couple more questions. Are the "unofficial" badges desirable or even appropriate in a collection of military badges? If so, how do I display them correctly.......with a 1930/42 series hat badge, which appears to be the first official 10th L H badge, with a General Service hat badge, presumably one with a slider and British maker's name I expect, or in isolation without a hat badge.

I look forward to seeing some of those scans posted, Mick.

Thanks
Donny

Last edited by Donny B.; 28-11-08 at 12:13 PM. Reason: correct punctuation
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Old 28-11-08, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Anyway. Here are a couple more questions. Are the "unofficial" badges desirable or even appropriate in a collection of military badges? If so, how do I display them correctly.......with a 1930/42 series hat badge, which appears to be the first official 10th L H badge, with a General Service hat badge, presumably one with a slider and British maker's name I expect, or in isolation without a hat badge.

I look forward to seeing some of those scans posted, Mick.
I consider the unofficial badges to be very desirable to collect. Some of them now are becoming near impossible to find. I would keep them displayed together as unofficial WW1 badges as most were worn between 1916 and 1918.

I'll also try and do those scans this weekend.

Mick
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  #9  
Old 29-11-08, 04:13 AM
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i agree with mick
very desirable and would fit into the pre 1930 collection and if you break it down further, into ww1 period as there were several unofficial aussie ww1 badges that were worn.
i would display them by themselves but if you needed a hat badge to balance a display, a ww1 rising sun and none better than a gaunt or firmin made
bc
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  #10  
Old 29-11-08, 05:03 AM
Donny B. Donny B. is offline
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Sounds good. The Gaunt badge also sounds about right. The collar badges that I was questioning have a Gaunt stamp (plug) on the reverse.

Donny
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  #11  
Old 29-11-08, 08:46 AM
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On the subject of 10th Light Horse A.I.F badges....

LTCol Noel Brazier - CO of the 10th Light Horse from 1916 to 1919.



Sadly the detail isn't that great so I'm 100% sure if its an unofficial badge or a picture take during the 1930s.

Mick
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  #12  
Old 29-11-08, 08:49 AM
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Some 10th Light Horse badges...



John Burridge (he added the errata to the book) mentions there that there are 2 variations of the 10th Light Horse AIF unofficial collar badge yet I'm thinking that one may well be a 1930 to 42 period collar badge.

Comments welcome.

Mick
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  #13  
Old 29-11-08, 09:51 AM
Donny B. Donny B. is offline
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A great photo. Those collar badges certainly look as though they could very well be the ones I was asking about (the one on the left of your picture of badges). What a pity the picture is not a bit clearer. Brazier was also a Lt and Colonel in the west Australian 18th and 25th Light Horse from about 1908 'til being instrumental in the formation of the 10th at the start of the war. Collar badges from those groups are very, very similar.
It would be nice to date the photo, the rising sun hat badge may be a clue to someone. Is it possible for the photo to have been taken in the thirties? Braizier would have been well into his sixties by then.....I don't know at what age he died......and he is not wearing any ribbons, etc.

I do have another 10th badge which is about collar size but is exactly the same as the 30/42 hat badge. That seems to match what Cossum has in his book.

You must have some great photos. I envy people who not only have those resources but who can also put their hand on them when needed. Thankyou for your help.
Donny
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Old 29-11-08, 08:05 PM
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Here's a picture of the unofficial collar badges being discussed - front and back.





and a set of 10th Light horse oxi badges from 1939 to 1944.



Mick
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  #15  
Old 29-11-08, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny B. View Post
A great photo. Those collar badges certainly look as though they could very well be the ones I was asking about (the one on the left of your picture of badges). What a pity the picture is not a bit clearer. Brazier was also a Lt and Colonel in the west Australian 18th and 25th Light Horse from about 1908 'til being instrumental in the formation of the 10th at the start of the war. Collar badges from those groups are very, very similar.
It would be nice to date the photo, the rising sun hat badge may be a clue to someone. Is it possible for the photo to have been taken in the thirties? Braizier would have been well into his sixties by then.....I don't know at what age he died......and he is not wearing any ribbons, etc.

I do have another 10th badge which is about collar size but is exactly the same as the 30/42 hat badge. That seems to match what Cossum has in his book.

You must have some great photos. I envy people who not only have those resources but who can also put their hand on them when needed. Thankyou for your help.
Donny

My feeling is that it's from the war - looking at the photo in the book (which is a little more clearer than the scan) he appears to be wearing LTCOL rank with curved AUSTRALIA shoulder titles. This would then make sense for him to wear a Rising Sun badge on his cap and the unofficial badges on his collars. I would also expect him to wear ribbons on his uniform if it was taken in the 1930s.

Mick
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