44th & 50th Royal Tank Regiments

Good Morning Members,
Can anyone help me with an image of a colour plate from the History of the Royal Tank Regiment book, by George Forty please?
I'm looking to view the epaulettes slide colours for two converted RTR units from Infantry battalions, and I am told these are shown in the colour section in the middle of the book.
I'm interested in the eppaulette slide colours of the 44th and 50th, descended from the Gloucestershire Regiment. I believe the 44th were yellow/mauve and the 50th were black/green/black.
As a former Infanteer I'm confused with different reports. One says the 44th continued to wear Glosters badges on a black beret but another source says they definately wore RTR badges. Also, one source states the 44th wore a red/yellow slide with the word GLOSTERS embroidered on it. But another source say the slides had a yellow/mauve strip at the bottom. Help 🤔⁉️
Thank you.
Ken 👍

[leigh kitchen]

I've seen photos of 44 RTR men wearing RTR badges, I can't remember where though........

On this site, about half way down the page. I remember the photo because of the "Goliath's".
http://www.desertrats.org.uk/bde/4thABartefacts2.htm

[Wmr-RHB]

According to G.L.D. Alderson's Cap-Badges of the British Army 1939-45, the 44th was converted from the 6 Bn early in 1938 and changed to RTC (from 1939 RTR) badges.

The 50th was not really converted from infantry as it was the result of the doubling of the 44th in 1939. I assume they also wore the same as their 44th original.

Leigh, very many thanks for that. Really appreciate your kind help. ��

Henk, Got all that. Thank you. ��

[Alan O]

There were at least some converted regts that wore both their original infantry badges and later RTC badges so both reports on the 44th's badge could be correct.

The Yeomanry did the opposite and many gave up their RTC or RA badges that they had worn since conversion in the 1920's and readopted the 1908 pattern yeomanry badges in 1943/44.

[rac1944]

Ken,
The colour plate you refer to is of the old wooden boards held at the Tank Museum with painted colours against each regiment, they are well known to contain errors so if you do ever see it, treat with caution. The best source for these colours is Tanks Again or Militaria Magazine No 257, naturally for copyright reasons I can't post from these. Tanks Again points out the pitfalls of this subject and 44RTR are amongst those with differently reported colours. One difficulty with the RTR colours is a major source is a post-war ACI.

The colour orders are yellow over red-brown (maroon) for 44 RTR, the photos on the page Leigh has linked to definitely show the brighter colour as the upper one. They defintely wore the RTR cap badge, for the RTR regiments raised from infantry roots the cap badge was always RTR unlike the RAC infantry converted regiments some of which did wear the badge of their infantry parent. Nothing in 44 RTR's history makes any mention of wearing anything relating to the Glosters.

50RTR's history doesn't mention the slip-on colours but there is a good photo on p206 showing men in KD with the black/green/black slips, the green shows quite bright in the b/w photo.
John

Thank you for the info Alan. I've now got pictures of 44th Tank men wearing Glosters and RTR badges. I'm just wondering that if upon amalgamation the chaps clung onto (?) their Glosters roots (?) but later fully adopted RTR badges/Insignia.
A good December 1945 picture I've been given shows men of the 44th in BD's and all are wearing RTC cap badges.
Very interestingly, the image shows NO cloth curved RAC shoulder titles being worn, but all the chaps are wearing the yellow/mauve eppaulette slides and the Desert Rats formation cloth badge with a RAC AOS below it and a cloth (WWI) cloth tank below that on both arms of their BD jackets.
I haven't mastered how to post pictures/images on here yet, but if anyone wants to email me I can show you the colour images I have. Again, thank you so much for helping me. Very much appreciated. ��

John,
Sorry for being a complete Tanks novice, but weren't the 44th Tanks in the RAC? I think I'm getting confused. At the Glosters Museum in Gloucester a display board to the regiments converted battalions has the 44th Tanks Insignia as: yellow curved ROYAL ARMOURED CORPS embroidered shoulder title, red diabalo of the 1st Army Tank Brigade with the Royal Armoured Corps AOS under it. The second display shows them with the Desert Rat formation badge. I haven't worked out how to post images/photos on here yet, but please feel free to email me at my UK IPA email address so I can show you. Many thanks, Ken. UKIPA533@yahoo.com

[Alan O]

[QUOTE=Glosters Cloth;450467]Thank you for the info Alan. I've now got pictures of 44th Tank men wearing Glosters and RTR badges. I'm just wondering that if upon amalgamation the chaps clung onto (?) their Glosters roots (?) but later fully adopted RTR badges/Insignia.

I think this reflects what happened with other regts.

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by Glosters Cloth

I haven't worked out how to post images/photos on here yet

Try this: https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...b3_attachments

Rgds, Thomas

[fearnaught]

Hi Ken, RAC1944 describes RTR correctly. On conversion they would have been transferred to RTR received Black beret and badge and tank arm badge for the right arm only and facing forward, the parent corps was the RAC, hence the RTC became the RTR. The Glosters also converted the 10th bat. to the RAC as the 159th Reg. RAC, they may have kept their Gloster cap badge, I'm at work at the moment so I can't check that. They would have worn the RAC title but not the RTR arm badge. The early RAC title was the black RAC on khaki slip-on, the red on yellow title was late war. I think they wore the GLOSTER on red/ yellow slip-on, though again I need to check my references, hope this helps somewhat, Mike

[rac1944]

Originally Posted by Glosters Cloth

John,
Sorry for being a complete Tanks novice, but weren't the 44th Tanks in the RAC? I think I'm getting confused. At the Glosters Museum in Gloucester a display board to the regiments converted battalions has the 44th Tanks Insignia as: yellow curved ROYAL ARMOURED CORPS embroidered shoulder title, red diabalo of the 1st Army Tank Brigade with the Royal Armoured Corps AOS under it. The second display shows them with the Desert Rat formation badge. I haven't worked out how to post images/photos on here yet, but please feel free to email me at my UK IPA email address so I can show you. Many thanks, Ken. UKIPA533@yahoo.com

Ken,
Yes indeed 44RTR were part of the RAC but from an insignia perspective as the true ancestors of the WWI tanks, the RTR naturally wanted to keep their heritage and not be subsumed by the RAC, they did wear the RAC Arm of Service strip which was a much more commonly worn piece of insignia than quite a few others you'd expect to be universal. Later in the war 44 RTR did wear the red/yellow RAC shoulder title but not all RTR regiments wore it, most didn't.

Fearnaught has hit the nail on the head and I'm sure we have a confusion between 44 RTR and 159 RAC who did wear the Glosters cap badge, inc back badge, in the black beret.

I'll email more detail as we're getting more in depth into the subject.

Also have a look at the list of all the regiments that served in the RAC during WWII, not all at once, some weren't created until 1942, some were disbanded during the war and some served in the RAC for as little as a few months (the last post of this thread) - https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...+tank+regiment By no means did they all wear the red/yellow RAC shoulder title despite being under its 'management'.
John

[REME 245]

Somewhere I have a picture of my Uncle Jack Rogers wearing a black RAC Beret with Glosters Badge and from memory metal shoulder titles. I think his formation badge incorporated a Tulip or similar? I don't think hewas in that battalion for very long and ended uo as a warrant officer in India.

REME 245, many thanks for that. The 10th Glosters were in the Lincs County and then 212th IIB and wore the tulip firmation badge, prior to converting to 159th RAC. I'd love to see the inage of your Uncke Jack if possible. My email is: UKIPA533@yahoo.com
Many thanks, Ken