Brass 17th Lancers Cap Badge

[GriffMJ]

In the back of the badge can you see grinding marks on the edges of the cross bones?

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Alan O,

I was refering to the Motto shown at the start of the thread and not the Firmin marked badge.

I've a feeling Firmin were making badges prior to the 40/50s but did not maker mark them? Genuine Cavalry economy badges are quite scarce and have been heavily copied, many such copies being sold at auction for considerable amounts! When compared to the genuine item thay can be told apart but the fakers have gone to great lengths with the slider shape and patina.

Andy

They wwere making them but not marking them. Same goes for Gaunts.

[monty]

The restoration work was undertaken by Warren Butcher.We both felt that the badge was probably an original.I hope this helps this thread because its turning out interesting.Thanks for all your views.

[Lancer 17]

Originally Posted by KLR

The only cap ‘motto’ for the 17th lancers recorded by the RACD was sealed in June 1898 as a WM Death’s Head etc – these were an average size of 39 x 45mm, though slightly smaller ones are known. I assume there are manufacturer’s variations. At the same time a WM collar badge was sealed and these are an average of 23x30mm with NS lugs.
BUT there are also GM collar badges at an average of 26.5x30mm with EW lugs.
I’m not sure of the date of these but there is no mention of GM cap mottos.
There is a very large WO tender for cap badges dated April 1916 which includes many “all GM” versions. Unfortunately there are very few cavalry ones – and none for 17 L !!

I have my own opinions about a GM 17L - but I hope this information is of some help.

G'day KLR

Thanks for the info above, I dont have access to this sort of info down under.

I have the following collar mottos

WM 26 x 31 mm with 2 N S lugs,single, this is of the flattened type, it has no doming at all.
GM 26 x 31 mm with 2 N S lugs, pair, as above flattened type.
WM 23 x 30 mm with 2 N S lugs.single
GM 21 x 30 mm with 2 E W lugs, single.
AA 20 x 25 mm with a single large flat lug, single.
Silver plated 20 x 26 mm with 2 W E lugs, pair.
AA 21.5 x 29 mm with a single large flat lug, single. Marked LB & B.
AA 20 x 24 mm with a single large flat lug, pair. These have a very flat back. These were the last used by 17/21 L and were received from the regt after amalgamation in 1993.
Sorry l nearly forgot this little gem. Stirling Silver 20 x 25 mm, 2 E W lugs, single. Hall marked Birmingham 1923, makers mark ? & S.

If anyone has any different l would be happy to know.

Regards

Phil.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by spreadeagle

The fact that the slider has been replaced is a bit suspicious.
There were very solid and convincing examples of GM and brass "Motto's" produced in the late 1970's ,and early 80's,with both loops and vertical shanks.The latter had a wide tapered shank,and had none of the usual tells of the modern copies.
Snap the it off,replace with a conventional WW1 style shank ,and hey presto,a long lost economy pattern.
Why? There's no economy replacing like for like.

Is this one of them? There is no visible crease line in the forehead (after cleaning).... however, the brass one had been varnished on the front and the varnish thickness did show the crease line seen on the obvious fakes? But note the right eye on the three Mottoes are identicle.

Brass


White Metal (no fault line) - Makers marked Motto is a bit "dinged" and polished.



I have attached a smaller image of the common Firmin Restrike....

[monty]

This is how the badge was talked about first time around.


I would like to first say sorry on behalf of Mr Warren Butcher.He repaired the badge for me by putting a period slider on.To date I have never met anyone in person on this forum,I could pick out the odd dealer that visits but apart from this I stand alone along with any thing I have said right or wrong.I will refund the forum member £20.00 because in his world this is what he wants to pay.
All the people that visit this forum and probably think its a joke,We are not letting them down are we.I am pretty much sold up now so mind how you all go & happy collecting. kind regards Gary

[GriffMJ]

If I have got it wrong .... then apologies.... but in this light its a a tough one.

[GriffMJ]

I have got another pair of eyes on it (younger) ...... and they say its a very pale yellow.... but its hard to see. So yes.... I was wrong. "its not a typical brass colour compared to the others"...... was the other comment.

So I apologise Monty.

[fougasse1940]

Perhaps the light yellow badge is a white metal badge with less nickel content?

Rgds, Thomas