Victorian Cavalry.....which unit ??????

[Voltigeur]

From the Life Magazine files, an interesting photograph (hopefully I haven't posted yet) of members of a British (Irish??) cavalry unit. Now the fun begins for the amateur detective.
Jo
http://images.google.com/hosted/life...1e1c681021c368

[Deejayuu]

Dont know which units but the collars are all have different coloured banding suggesting that they are not from the same regiment. The characters to the sides have different coloured hat bands as well as differnt coloured trouser stripes. Obviously the chap in the centre is a hussar but are the other tow chaps?
Dave

[Deejayuu]

Just looking at the soldier on the left who has what appears to be 4 stripes with victorian crown over. Is this a CSM or RSM or just a sergeant with a st-st-stutter?
Dave

[GriffMJ]

8th Hussars (left); 19th Hussars -missing a "Nellie" arm badge though, possibly a Brevet Sgt (Middle); 13th Hussars (Right)

Date c1895, thats my guess

[Voltigeur]

And the winner is......Griff........I think since I have no way of contradict him.
Jo

[3748 Hussar]

Hi Griff,

What makes you think its 8th Hussar and not 5 RIL

Regards

3748 Hussar

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

8th Hussars (left); 19th Hussars -missing a "Nellie" arm badge though, possibly a Breve Sgt (Middle); 13th Hussars (Right)

Date c1895, thats my guess

[GriffMJ]

Re: 8th Hussar or 5th Lancer - Its not a Lancer Pillbox The Lancer pillbox is standard (Just differing colours) ..... you can still see the lancer pattern on the SD caps today. Also, the stable jacket cuff pattern is a give away for the 8th Hussars. His pillbox design is actually used in other Hussar Regiments, so its not always a good indicator. The Suffolk Yeomanry (Other Ranks) also use the same design as the 8th Hussars seen in the photo. The Leicestershire PAO Yeomanry also have the same design as the 11th PAO Hussars.... just different coloured lace and cloth.

19th Hussars (In review order) = White Busby Bag plus full white hackle but the collar of his jacket does not have white facings (or else it would be the 13th Hussars). Also, if he was 13th Hussars, his rank insignia would have a white backing (it would be red if we could see the colour).... like the chap standing to his left..... who is a 13th Hussar SNCO in stable dress The 19th Hussar should be wearing a circa 1889 Smith & Wright H/M Silver "Elephant" Arm badge...... but is not.... this leads me to think that he has just been made up and awaits confirmation of Sgt (I used the term * "Brevet" in this context).

* "Brevet" referred to a warrant authorizing a commissioned officer to hold a higher rank temporarily, but usually without receiving the pay of that higher rank except when actually serving in that role.

[grumpy]

what about Lance-Sergeant? Much more likely surely?

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Re: 8th Hussar or 5th Lancer - Its not a Lancer Pillbox The Lancer pillbox is standard (Just differing colours) ..... you can still see the lancer pattern on the SD caps today. Also, the stable jacket cuff pattern is a give away for the 8th Hussars. His pillbox design is actually used in other Hussar Regiments, so its not always a good indicator. The Suffolk Yeomanry (Other Ranks) also use the same design as the 8th Hussars seen in the photo. The Leicestershire PAO Yeomanry also have the same design as the 11th PAO Hussars.... just different coloured lace and cloth.

19th Hussars (In review order) = White Busby Bag plus full white hackle but the collar of his jacket does not have white facings (or else it would be the 13th Hussars). Also, if he was 13th Hussars, his rank insignia would have a white backing (it would be red if we could see the colour).... like the chap standing to his left..... who is a 13th Hussar SNCO in stable dress The 19th Hussar should be wearing a circa 1889 Smith & Wright H/M Silver "Elephant" Arm badge...... but is not.... this leads me to think that he has just been made up and awaits confirmation of Sgt (I used the term * "Brevet" in this context).

* "Brevet" referred to a warrant authorizing a commissioned officer to hold a higher rank temporarily, but usually without receiving the pay of that higher rank except when actually serving in that role.

"BREVET" was not temporary, it was permanent until/ if the officer achieved the substantive rank granted by the Brevet. The British Army granted brevets to the three field ranks only: Major, Lt-Col and Col. When serving with his own regiment the brevetted officer served in his substantive rank, but when on extra-regimental duties his brevet decided his seniority. Thus, an officer holding a brevet could find himself commanding his own CO if placed in command of an improvised force. Well documented occasions exist. Also, if, say, three Captains were to form a Board or whatever, a brevet of Major would ensure the presidency.

[GriffMJ]

21st Lancer Officers c1900, showing the Lancer Pillbox. The Gold Lace around the Cap is the same used by the 19th & 20th Hussars also.

Lancers, Undress Forage Cap (Pillbox):-
Blue Cloth (Scarlet in the case of the 12th Lancers), with a band of 1 3/4 inch lace (regimental pattern), gold purl button on the top, and gold braid crossing the crown at right angles, and ending uderneath the lace band.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Deejayuu

Just looking at the soldier on the left who has what appears to be 4 stripes with victorian crown over. Is this a CSM or RSM or just a sergeant with a st-st-stutter?
Dave

He is a Troop Serjeant Major.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grumpy

what about Lance-Sergeant? Much more likely surely?

I agree, a Lance Serjeant, who thus would not wear the cavalry arm badge to distinguish his status.