Brass Para Non-voided Wings

[tcrown]

I'm submitting today an assumption to all experts about the existence of possible non-plated brass Para wings in service shortly after WW2.

I have acquired this badge (see here http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...p?albumid=3226) that was mounted on a 1945 dated Kangol beret (see the beret and badge in the attachment below)

We have started a discussion in here http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=61523 and Jack8 was very sceptical about the badge being genuinely issued. He also mentioned that 'some sellers stating that they were earmarked for the post war Palestine conflict'.

It seems similar badges can be found on the marketplace and the collectors community has been quite reluctant, considering them to be fake at best.

In my view, it is questionable for 2 reasons:
- the badge is well manufactured and doesn't have the flaws one can found of the usual types of copy
- I can see faint traces of color paint or something similar but I doubt this badge was ever plated like its WW2 predecessors. It's hard to believe a repo would have this sort of addition.

My question would then be: can we not consider non-plated brass badges produced for reinforcements shortly after WW2?
Any contribution to the discussion would be welcomed.

Thanks
Pierre

[fougasse1940]

We can do lots of things, but are they grounded in any historical facts? This is the first time I come across this post war Palestine theory, and it doesn't make sense to me. Sounds like a made up sellers story to me. Buy the item, not the story. I don't have the production numbers for W/M Parachute Regiment beret badges (yet), but 118.456 plastic badges were made with the last production order dated 5 September 1945, what would be the need for G/M badges? The truth is probably burried somewhere in a file at Kew.

Not all fakes have pointy wings, the blob, or squarish feathers or any or all of these traits. Is the reverse die crisp? Feeted lugs? Thin and easily bendable? Artificially aged? Quite a few fakes are G/M.
Perhaps you obtained an original beret with a fake badge?

Badge looks W/M to me in your image anyway, post a better pic from a straight angle front and back against a white background and you'll undoubtedly will get more, and possibly more useful, replies.

Rgds, Thomas.

[grenadierguardsman]

I have to say i see two colours. The badge and the lugs.
Andy

[JerryBB]

The badge in the pics appears Wm/plated on my screen

[irish]

Now that is good information. I had been stumbling around looking only for the "blob", "extended wing tips" and "square under feathers". Combined now with loss of line detail, no horizontal bar in cage and angular wing tips, I feel I have it now.


Thanks
Jack

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by Claire's Collectables

No horizontal bar to cage (3)

It does actually have an additional bar but very high up.

Rgds, Thomas.

[tcrown]

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

We can do lots of things, but are they grounded in any historical facts? This is the first time I come across this post war Palestine theory, and it doesn't make sense to me. Sounds like a made up sellers story to me. Buy the item, not the story. I don't have the production numbers for W/M Parachute Regiment beret badges (yet), but 118.456 plastic badges were made with the last production order dated 5 September 1945, what would be the need for G/M badges? The truth is probably burried somewhere in a file at Kew.

Not all fakes have pointy wings, the blob, or squarish feathers or any or all of these traits. Is the reverse die crisp? Feeted lugs? Thin and easily bendable? Artificially aged? Quite a few fakes are G/M.
Perhaps you obtained an original beret with a fake badge?

Badge looks W/M to me in your image anyway, post a better pic from a straight angle front and back against a white background and you'll undoubtedly will get more, and possibly more useful, replies.

Rgds, Thomas.

Thanks Thomas for you reply. You're right: it's hard to believe new badges were needed in the late 40s. This one looks quite old and well made for a fake though and I can't imagine anyone willing to produce something so different from the original pattern.

It is not WM. See this comparison with another badge. Background and light are identical on both views.

[tcrown]

Originally Posted by Claire's Collectables

May I use your own image to illustrate my points.

Whilst from the images the badge certainly appears to be Wm and not Gm, there are also points which indicate the badge is Fake.

Paddle shaped ends to tips of wings, the ends should be more angular and NOT rounded (1)

Loss of line detail (2)

No horizontal bar to cage (3)

Looks just like an aged Repro.

CC

Thanks.
Could it be an old repro made for veterans at some point? It can't be a restrike given all the points you mentioned (although the horizontal bar is in)

[Jack8]

The Palestine reference was the selling pitch of the Dealers offering these badges for sale singularly or in boxes at Militaria fairs a couple of years ago, I didn't buy the story then and don't believe it today.

In my opinion this pattern of badge is a fake, other fakes have been produced in a brassy looking metal as well as white metal. These badges are being offered for sale as genuine, so it is up to the collectors to decide if they want them in their collection. I have one as an example of a fake badge along with other fake examples such as the wing die flaw with the pointy wing tips pattern, which incidentally was sold to me many years ago by a dealer who wrote a book. To this day he maintains it is genuine.


Jack

[leigh kitchen]

Admittedly I have no more interest in the Parachute Regiment than I have in any other unit & I have little knowledge of Parachute Regiment insignia, but
where on earth did the story of brass badges being issued to post war Palestine Paras come from?
Why would they be? The Poles & presumably other nationalities had no difficulty in sourcing locally made insignia of good & of poor quality in that area during WWII, if badges produced outside of Palestine were issued why would they be brass rather than white metal?
Is the brass badge issue story a corruption of WWI economy badges (ie brass badges) genuimely being issued post war to "Old Comrades" (KOYLI) & recruits (Dorset's?).
As I say, Para Regt, not a subject I know much about, so am I missing something that does lend credibility to the brass badges for Palestine theory?

[Alan O]

Badges are not procured for a conflict region - they are ordered for a specific headdress using a sealed pattern and sent out as required. The Palestine story is utter rubbish.

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by tcrown

It is not WM. See this comparison with another badge. Background and light are identical on both views.

Still not convinced, a good clean might clear things up, try some kitchen vinegar or a good rinse with hot water and washing up liquid. Then take a comparison pic with a genuine G/M badge.

Rgds, Thomas.

[Frank Kelley]

There were certainly a great many young lads who had joined the General Service Corps at the end of the Second World War who did actually end up in Palestine, whilst serving in the ranks of the Parachute Regiment, so many of the same had been issued with plated brass, both voided as well as solid crown and white metal badges.
You mention "reinforcements" I am struggling to understand that, given the loss of a whole division, as well as the merger and disbandment of battalions.

Originally Posted by tcrown

I'm submitting today an assumption to all experts about the existence of possible non-plated brass Para wings in service shortly after WW2.

My question would then be: can we not consider non-plated brass badges produced for reinforcements shortly after WW2?
Any contribution to the discussion would be welcomed.

Thanks
Pierre

[leigh kitchen]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Badges are not procured for a conflict region - they are ordered for a specific headdress using a sealed pattern and sent out as required. The Palestine story is utter rubbish.

What is the Palestine story? "Old" brass stock shipped out to meet demand when white metal badges weren't available? A contract mistakenly met with brass instead of white metal badges? Locally made in die stamped brass?
I'm assuming it's one or more of that unlikely trinity.

[Jack8]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

What is the Palestine story? "Old" brass stock shipped out to meet demand when white metal badges weren't available? A contract mistakenly met with brass instead of white metal badges? Locally made in die stamped brass?
I'm assuming it's one or more of that unlikely trinity.

The Palestine story has nothing to do with brass badges. It was a story that was told by some dealers at Militaria fairs to sell white metal Parachute Regiment cap badges in cardboard boxes. The boxes were marked as though they had come from the stores. The story was to explain the large quantities of these badges being sold by the box full with what looked like MOD markings.

I formed my opinion that they were not genuine badges based on the appearance of the badges which to me did not conform to a genuine badge. The badges lack quality particularly around the crown and lion, there are no raised edges to the inner wings and the lugs are attached with a grey looking solder. This is what I mainly based my opinion on after collecting numerous examples of genuine WW2 examples.

As others have said the story is highly unlikely but the fact remains that these badges are out there for sale and it is up to the collectors to decide if they want to buy them. The one's that I have seen are all white metal but it is possible that some have been produced with more of a brassy appearance.

Jack