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  #16  
Old 27-02-09, 06:21 PM
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Bill, can you please confirm the archive references for this material? (RG24 vol ? File ? Folio pages ??) Also can you confirm the file number for the badge submitted in your image? It looks like 13/CLOTH/5/10 or something like that. You can be sure I'll be at the archives in short order to dig into this and try to sort it out.
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  #17  
Old 27-02-09, 06:29 PM
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Here is a doc from the Canadian Signal Training Centre dated 8 Mar 46 where they are saying that the current badge (attached = RC Signals) is cheap and insignificant. They suggest a new badge, the single line words in full version so it is clear to me any 1945 proposal was not accepted. The minute on the bottom indicates that none should be acquired without an official pattern so it seems they were not in use. (See first three images). Also there is correspondence from Sep 47 reference trying to get a sample to the IB for sealing. The final minute on the bottom says it was returned to IB on 31 Mar 48. (Image 4).

So, what to make of all this? One take is that the Corps wasn't happy with the RC Signals short title and wanted to move to the single line spelled out version. In the mean time there was a Army wide CAO for the two line words in full version that could well have derailed the desires of the Corps. After only six years in use the Corps' wishes seem to have prevailed when the single line version was adopted in/about 1954. A second take is that the Corps went directly from the RC Signals version to the single line spelled out version although, based on my archives research this didn't happen until years after the war (about 47/48). Separate from this was a two line version used for the CAPF as suggested by Bill's research although why the CAPF would wear something different from any one else is beyond me since there is nothing CAPF-ish about the two line version. (Bill, does that file have actual samples?)

I love a good mystery.....
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Last edited by Joe C; 27-02-09 at 07:00 PM.
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  #18  
Old 27-02-09, 06:49 PM
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Default Archives research

Digging further into the archives material in my possession, I found a subsequent letter to the pattern submission, dated 9 Aug 1945. The pattern appears to have been approved but not taken into service. (Joe, these were images taken for me by a researcher, I will have to dig into the photocopy pile to try and find the actual reference.)
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  #19  
Old 27-02-09, 07:30 PM
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Joe, To answer the question about the two line title, consider the following. The Canadian Army Pacific Force was going to serve as a unit organized along American order of battle, (eg a brigade Cdn roughly equaled a regimental combat team US if IRC), and the Canadians were to be equiped with US stores and uniforms. How were the CAPF to be identified? The RC Sigs had meaning to the British in NW Europe, but was "greek" to the US army. To clarify who was who, the Canadian APF was to be clearly identified. I edited the third document, and other parts of it lists a dozen cloth titles that were to be issued for various corps / regiments on the orbat of the CAPF. In the case of corps titles, abbreviated versions all appear to have been replaced by fully spelled out versions. The Special Services and Public Affairs listed in the document were stood up early and were part of the support and administration units of the CAPF. The three titles were all "oyster" (silver white) on a medium blue colour. The issue of titles for the CAPF all clearly stated CANADA or CANADIAN in the actual title rather than the Canada nationality title that had been employed separately with titles that did not include nationality.
The idea that the single line was the preference of the corps (and I believe the Canadian army) holds more weight. It appears to have been the pattern desired, and pursued for wear by the RCCS after the war.
(Note. The Special Services were not elite combat troops. They were the auxiliaries like the YMCA, Canadian Legion, etc.)
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  #20  
Old 27-02-09, 07:52 PM
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What throws me off is the two line version seems to have been the focus of the CAO. Here are images of those pages and you will see the example provided and the sizes support the two line version. There is a series of files 13/CLOTH/5 that cover badges but I suspect these are only the CMHQ files and won't have anything about CAPF. If you can provide the reference for your post on the CAPF material I'll go check them out. Maybe there are samples in the file...

I just can't get the idea out of my head that I've seen period photos showing the two line version in the 48-54 time frame. Based on the CSTC request it seems clear that the two line version wasn't adopted for use by the Corps as a whole so any photos should date from only 1945. Have I got that wrong?
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  #21  
Old 27-02-09, 08:59 PM
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Lots to chew over here. More research, and locating some dated photos would be very useful.
Back to the original question, what do you think of those shoulder titles on the tunic? David has indicated to me that the BD is 1942 dated. How does that fit with titles made in 48, or even later? I doubt the fellow would still be wearing a war dated BD in 1955.
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  #22  
Old 27-02-09, 10:20 PM
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I don't know what to think. Your information is new to me so I guess I think that it's an older battle dress being worn in the mid-50's. If I get the name of the owner I might be able to attack this problem from that perspective.

I haven't found the pic(s) I was looking for but here is the first of the ones I've come across to support the latter time frame. From www.nwtandy.rcsigs.ca showing the two-line badge in wear circa 1951.
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  #23  
Old 28-02-09, 12:11 PM
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Perhaps the answer is the existence of the titles? Waste not, want not? As there was a stock of the two line titles in 1945, it would be a waste not to issue them. The history of one title can get really complicated.
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  #24  
Old 28-02-09, 10:26 PM
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While possible I find that a little far fetched. There wouldn't likely have been enough of any such badges made up for CAPF to warrant their use across the whole Corps.

The things I'd be looking for to bring more clarity to this whole issue would be a drawing or sample of the CAPF badge associated with it's submission and/or approval; documentation about the production of any CAPF badges; submission/samples/approval of the two line shoulder title worn in the late 40s and early 50s; and information/approval of the one line badge indicating when it was finally adopted for wear. My search continues....
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  #25  
Old 01-03-09, 12:18 PM
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Joe, Do you have evidence that the two line title was a corps wide issue? Korean era photos that I have show one line titles.
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  #26  
Old 01-03-09, 04:23 PM
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No, no hard evidence about it at all, just photos and anecdotal. Included in my list of things I need to find is everything (or anything) official about the two line variety, hopefully something with a sample or drawing attached. I'll be hitting the archives this week I hope, have you managed to find the reference for the CAPF information?

I don't have good Korean era photos showing uniforms. If you (or anyone else) can send me some by email that would be fantastic!!!
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  #27  
Old 06-03-09, 03:01 AM
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Got to the archives today for some digging....

Found (a) one proposal to adopt the single line full words title and (b) the rejection of said proposal. From the rejection it sounds like there may be a fuller record of the issue but I'll have to track that down.

The decision not to adopt it was referenced in one of Bill's references and alluded to in mine from 1946 but this makes it more official. The single line full words title is not from the Second World War period. I haven't found documentation on exactly when it was introduced but at least we know now when it wasn't. My search continues!!!
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  #28  
Old 07-03-09, 08:20 PM
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Default Ref RCCS BD Details Update

The label in the BD has it as a 1940 Pattern and has a black
circular handstamp - July 1942.
His blues peaked cap has a label - 426/12/38.
His name was T.P.Dunderdale (Lt.Col)
Some writing underneath the above number reads:-
4 RCCS
But, note that the "4" might be a "7" from the way its been written.

His No1 dress hat has a large Scully label. The blues uniform seems
to have come from Gieves and Hawkes.
Don't know if this will help but I cannot find any other distinguishing marks
anywhere else.
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  #29  
Old 08-03-09, 03:35 AM
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So far I've been able to track TP Dunderdale to November 1945 when he was a member of 3 Div Sigs (CDA) and held the rank of Major. I don't have immediate access to post war files to see when he became a LCol but that would certainly shed some light on things.
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Last edited by Joe C; 08-03-09 at 03:45 AM.
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  #30  
Old 09-03-09, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe C View Post
So far I've been able to track TP Dunderdale to November 1945 when he was a member of 3 Div Sigs (CDA) and held the rank of Major. I don't have immediate access to post war files to see when he became a LCol but that would certainly shed some light on things.
Joe,
Nice going and many thanks.
I assume that the mark "4" RCCS could indicate that he was part of 4
division RCCS?
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