CFA cap badges and CEF Cataloguing

[Bill A]

Welcome to the Forum Simon. Here is a thread that is a must read if you collect CEF battery badges. http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...battery+badges
Larry, Any chance of getting back to the MI and imaging the CFA / CGA badges?

[manchesters]

Bill,
Thankyou, I have studied all the previous replies on this subject over a number of years and I have not been able to reach a definitive answer on which badges were in existance in WW1 and which were not.

The thread you highlighted helps in the respect that fake badges have been made for those numbered batteries, but the question remains, did those battery badges ever exist or are they just fantasy pieces.

I would really like to know the following.

1. Which badges in Cox never existed

2, Is Charlton accurate.

3. A list of badges known to have existed in WW1

Yours hopefully

[Bill A]

In reference to Cox, 1 Battery through 35 are fantasy, as are 37 through 49. 46 Bty is an exception, but it is not the field gun pattern, it is a gun with an oval annulus with Queen's CFA, all on a maple leaf. 56th Bty is also a unique pattern, again the gun on a maple leaf. 58th Bty again is unique wht the spray of maple leaves both sides of a field gun, 58 above the gun, surmounted by the imperial crown, underneath a CANADA scroll, and another reading Overseas Bty / CEF / X. Once the numbers get into the 60's, the list in my post #9 is reasonably accurate.
The Charlton guide is, as far as has been determined, accurate. (Eg, it was verified by a couple of collectors, and it came out before Draks got into the act. NB. The Draks copies are excellent and have now been sitting around for about a decade. They are a major concern if one specializes in CFA badges.)
If you take the list in my post #9 and edit /combine with the Charlton and the notes on here you have a good start.

[Phillip Herring]

These numbered artillery badges were depot batteries, not overseas field batteries. There is a good entry on them on Joseph Harper's book A Source of Pride.

I have attached a post that I made in two previous threads on this subject.

Originally Posted by Phillip Herring

If you look at The Charlton Standard Catalogue of First World War Canadian Corps Badges, pages 195-197 show the standard Canadian Artillery badge - plain, wreath on each side of the gun and wreath on each side of the gun with the wreath extended to underneath the central segment of the scroll. I understand what you mean about adding the central device as I have badges for 62 and 68 Batteries. Pages 201-234 show the three varieties for the different batteries.
I'm just curious why Hemsley made the three variants for battery sized units.

Joseph Harper's A Source of Pride, pages 20-24 gives some good information on the batteries and their badges. All of the following are quotes from this source.

"The 44th to 78th Overseas Depot Batteries were authorized in 1916 and the 79th Overseas Depot Battery and 80th to 84th Overseas Depot Batteries in 1917. Distinctive cap badges were approved for the 56th and 58th Overseas Depot Batteries."

"George F Hemsley Co Limited, of Montreal and at least one other Canadian maker produced cap badges for the 36th, 50th to 53rd, 55th to 57th, 61st to 79th Depot Batteries. These were the Canada type artillery gun badge with or without a maple wreath. A separate wheel was mounted on the gun bearing the battery number in the centre and the wording "Overseas Field Battery" on the rim."

The following quote is a reply from the Director of Artillery.
"...the D of A states in effect as follows: There should be no alterations in the badges as now issued to CEF Artillery Units. Depot Batteries in Canada have no claim, as batteries, to the word "Overseas" on their Cap Badge. Batteries in the field do not use this term."

"CEF (Canada) RO 682, 17 June 1918 clarified the matter of distinctive battery badges:
Attention is directed to Routine Order No 492 which will be strictly enforced. The practice of certain artillery units, wearing badges, which embody the number of the Depot Battery concerned is unauthorized. "


I have put key sentences in bold.
From all of this, it looks like most of these batteries were depot batteries which did not not go overseas as batteries and referring to them as "Overseas Batteries" is erroneous.

Hope this helps.

Phil

Phil

[manchesters]

I would like to thank Phil, and Bill for their input and also Thomas who is sending me the Cox errata sheets.

I will sit down and work out a list that I will run past you more knowledgeable Canadian collectors soon.

thanks again

[manchesters]

Hello,

I am now familiar with the Draks fakes and am confident in spotting them.

The next set of fakes I want to familiarize myself with are the ones quoted on here as having 2 folding tangs on the reverse.

Can anyone show further photos of these and list the units that they have seen in this style.

In 2008, a now banned member also posted that originals should have THREE folding tangs ONLY, and that any with two are fakes. Can anyone verify this?

Another thing that strikes me is where did the badges in COX come from, who made them and were they done in bulk. They clearly arent cast copies of originals as half of them never existed!.

Any help appreciated.

regards

[Bill A]

Hello Simon, To answer your question about the Cox CFA badges, my understanding is that they were "images only".
The earlier tang badges have wider than normal tangs, but I don't have images.

[manchesters]

Bill,

Looking at the COX pictures with what you have just said in mind, I can see what you mean. It looks like numerals have been 'superimposed" over a generic photograph of an original badge. That would make sense.

So thats Draks and Cox sorted out. Excellent.

Getting back to the tangs, I have also read on here that the tangs on the copies are wider also. Would like some photos to compare.

What opinion do you hold on originals having 3 tangs and not 2?

regards

[Bill A]

Simon, I don't have any notes on the early reproductions, so I don't want to say one way on the other. More research on that question is needed.

[manchesters]

There are 2 rare badges on ebay at present. Here are the details. I dont know how to get a picture on Ebay onto here I'm afraid.

I think they are "made up", but open to opinions.

ROYAL CANADIAN ARTILLERY "C" TRG BATTERY - CAP BADGE
331128513194

ROYAL CANADIAN ARTILLERY - No 4 TRG BATTERY - CAP BADGE
331128516314

regards

[Bill A]

I am not comfortable with either of those badges.

[manchesters]

Bill,
Have you ever seen one?
I was wondering whether the applied numerals/letters were gilding metal or white metal.
Charlton doesnt say.

regards

[Bill A]

I have only seen the odd one at shows, and to be truthful, I really haven't paid much attention to them because they are so easily faked.

[manchesters]

Can anyone assist in clarifying the use of a brooch fitting, seen on some CEF Artillery badges (and possibly other CEF badges)

Are they rreplacements where tangs or loops have broken or were they made like this?

regards

[cefguy]

Is there any listing of what badges were in the Will Bird Collection? I think that to have a reference that includes the badges in these very old advanced collections would be very helpful in vetting a proposed list. It would be a good reference guide in that the collections for the most part were well established several decades before fakes were on the horizon. I have contacted the Edinburgh Museum regarding the Durrand Collection notes and they tell me that they have all of the notes relating to that collection in storage.

The collections that I can think of off hand that I would like to see listings of are...

1. Will Bird's collection
2. Capt Durrand collection
3. Canadian War Museum collection
4. RCMI collection

....and I am sure there are many other great advanced collections started in the early years that would be helpful. Perhaps listings of some of these collections are already out there in the collective holdings of forum members. It just seems to me that it would form a very good base line for reference.
Don