Canadian Chaplain Service

[fearnaught]

Hi, how many people were in the CCS? Was it only chaplains and priests, or were other personnel involved?

[Voltigeur]

Well fearnaught, I know that every major infantry batt. armoured regt. engineer, or medical unit had a padre or chaplain (choose the preferred word) attached to the unit. For example the french-speaking units of the canadian army in europe had RC chaplains. As for the english-speaking units they may have had chaplains of other denominations. For the units smaller than a battalion-size I think they had to rely on a chaplain from a nearby unit.
I'm sure someone will be able to shed more light on this subject but I found something that may give you a better idea on chaplains in the canadian army. http://www.umanitoba.ca/colleges/st_...995/Crerar.pdf

Jo

PS; I remember reading a long time ago that there was also six (6) Jewish rabbis that served overseas for the whole Canadian Army in europe.

[boots and saddles]

We have a ex-padre here in our parish who was the Chaplain General in the Canadain Forces and while there had the privledge of bringing home the Canadian unknown solder,I have the CD. what a marvelous man a real people's pastor. When he retired from the Army ( I guess it was army, do we have one Bill? or is it called something else.) oh yes it's land army isn't it.he bought a house in Montreal & renovated it to his liking then went for a holiday in Australia & while lying on the beach with his book suddenly said to himself "What am I doing here" He went to his room called the Bishop & said I hear you are short of priests The bishop said Yes I need one in MF & R .He said I'll take MF my home town. So we got him. Just a little trivia I thought I'd pass along. I'd like to have his FS Cap Clive. Ray

[Bill A]

Hi fearnaught, The CCS was quite small, not sure of the exact numbers, but would not have been more than a few hundred. The service was divided into Protestant and Catholic branches, plus the handful of rabis. There are around 400 chaplains listed in IN THIS SIGN, the history of the Protestant chaplain service, and there would likely be a comprable number of priests in the Catholic service. Maybe QSA Mike can add to this. He had some good information on the string about the Canadian Scottish Chaplain.
In the Canadian army, the CCS was only officers. Other personnel assisted the padres, but retained their original unit affiliations in insignia.
Ray raises an interesting question. The navy had their chaplains, as did the air force, but in those services the ministers and priests were integrated into that branch of the armed forces, and were not a separate corps.

[fearnaught]

Hi, some CCS insignia.

[Dwayne H]

...here are some CCS badges from the Italy theatre

[Bill A]

Nice accumulation Dwayne. Chaplains from the 1st Canadain Army were attached to the Canadian units in Italy?

[Dwayne H]

Hi Bill,
I haven't been able to positively ascertain the amount of involvement of 1sy Canadian Army in Italy. A squadron of the Elgin regiment was there as were some corp troops. I've seen a number of Italy theatre brassards with 1st Canadian Army insignia.....perhaps a subject for more research.

Dwayne

[Pylon1357]

Please forgive my ignorance in regards to the Chaplin Corps, as my knowledge of this is very very poor.

See if I have this straight. The Chaplin Corps was just that a "CORPS". When a Chaplin or Padre was embedded in a Regiment, he would be wearing the Regimental insigna and not that of the Corps. Correct??

The reason for this question is just to get a handle on things. I have seen many photos of The Irish Parde, Rowlands. In each and every image, he wearing the Irish Regt of Canada insignia. There is nothing to indicate he was a Padre in the photos.

[Bill A]

Hi Cliff, I am not sure I understand the affiliation and insignia either. Here is some more information. Check the entry by QSA Mike. What have we here? No 4

[Dwayne H]

It is my belief that while they had the choice of wearing either insignia. We have seen many pictures where there is a mix of the two. The picture of the Canadian Scottish padre on D-Day comes to mind.

I have pictures of the Perth Padre wearing the Perth regiment insignia...both cap and cloth as well as an earlier photo him wearing the CCS cap badge.

My guess those padres "embedded" with a regiment might have worn the regimental insignia as a sign that they were in there with the troops. I imagine seeing the padre accept your badge would have been something the ment liked to see.

Padres assigned to higher formations would not have had that intimate link to one particular unit and therefore would likely have continued to wear the CCS insignia.

That's my guess...

Dwayne

[servicepub]

I think that Dwaybe has it correct. Padres (Chaplains) attached to a regiment would be encouraged to wear the same insignia as their 'flock' in order to assimilate themselves while Chaplains attached to headquarters, Training Centres, bases, etc... would wear the Corps insignia on the basic Servce Dress or Battledress uniform. I have studied a number of photos at National Archives, of Chaplains and those attached to Scottish/Highland regiments especially are completely garbed in that tribal dress.

[Pylon1357]

Thanks guys, I was starting to get a little concerned. I thought I had pretty much lost my mind.

[QSAMIKE]

In an attempt to provide input on several of the questions contained in this thread, I contacted a friend, David Love, who has focused on collecting chaplain-related artifacts for over 30 years. His collection of chaplain-related artifacts numbers in the thousands and encompasses any and all types of artifacts, ranging from insignia, uniforms, paper items, specialized kit, field organs, military chapel pews, etc. etc., and he regularly provides information on Canadian chaplains to a variety of queries, including to the CF Chaplain Branch. After reading the thread at my request, he provided the following:

1) A recently completed PhD thesis out of the University of Toronto indicates that 1,253 clergymen served as chaplains in some respect in WW2. This number includes reserve and other ‘auxiliary’ type chaplains. I, personally, have compiled a nominal roll of 819 individuals (out of a total nominal roll of over 3700 names) who served in Canadian Chaplain Service with the CASF. I believe this to be largely complete but my number does not include reserve, etc. chaplains; those are listed under separate heading. Hence the probable difference in the two totals. Most of my names come from ‘official’ sources various types and wherever possible, have been corroborated by at least two independent sources. Of the 819 total, included are 285 Roman Catholic, 189 Church of England, 145 United Church of Canada, 68 Presbyterian, 51 Baptist, 14 Jewish (9 full-time), 13 Lutheran, 7 Orthodox (incl. Greek and Ukrainian), 4 Salvation Army, 3 Pentecostal, 1 YMCA, and 43 Protestant undifferentiated. Only ordained clergy, serving with honourary commissions, were part of the CCS. Later in the war, chaplain aides were assigned to most overseas army unit chaplains. In addition, various other support personnel are indicated, however these were attached to the CCS rather than administratively part of the service and as such retained their original unit affiliations. The one exception occurred late in the war when 7 CWAC officers, commonly called ‘Madres”, were taken into the CCS (Prot) as pastoral assistants. These individuals universally had served in similar roles on civvy street and were not ordained. Once the war was over, the organization once again reverted back to containing ordained personnel only.

2) During WW2, the chaplaincy included two Canadian Chaplain Services (RC and Prot.), two RCAF Chaplain Services (RC and Prot.), and two RCN Chaplain Services (RC and Prot.). It was not until June 1948 that the chaplaincy was elevated to the status of a Corps and then only with the army version – i.e. the Royal Canadian Army Chaplain Corps (RCAChC). The RCAF and RCN counterparts remained as ‘Services’ throughout their existence.

3) Chaplains were assigned, wherever possible, to give a denominational balance consistent with their charges. For example, a primarily Roman Catholic French Canadian unit would generally have the direct ministrations of an RC chaplain, but there would also be available a Protestant chaplain(s). It was also a rule to provide 1 RC chaplain/500 RC personnel and 1 Prot. Chaplain/1000 Protestant personnel. However, due to availability and politics, there were many exceptions to these criteria. This is one of the main reasons why separate (but parallel) RC and Protestant Chaplain Services were established during WW2. This official dichotomy continued until the 1990’s when the branches were again amalgamated for economic reasons. Each branch had a Principal Chaplain and a similar administrative structure. While officially separate, both branches and the various Canadian denominations worked closely together to ensure a coordinated approach to supplying sufficient chaplains to the military. There were problems, of course, but things were much better than that seen in WW1 when the CCS was one entity.

4) In the CASF (regardless of the theatre of operations), unit chaplains were officially attached to, or assigned at the brigade level. Usually three chaplains (1 RC, 1 Church of England and 1 other Protestant) were assigned to each brigade, regardless of type. However they generally took their messing and board at the battalion or battery level. In addition, chaplains were assigned to Divisional, Corps and 1st Canadian Army HQs and Troops, as well as to the Office of the Principal Chaplains (RC and Prot.) Overseas. Miscellaneous chaplains were also attached to other formations and units such as hospitals (3 to a general hospital, 2 to a stationary hospital, 1 or 2 to a casualty clearing station), other branches of the service (e.g. forestry corps), social centres (e.g. London) if they were large enough, training camps, and other miscellaneous entities. Smaller, separate or independent units, would ‘adopt’ the nearest available chaplain as needed. However, given the nature of their calling, many chaplains tended to closely identify themselves with their messing friends and personnel at the lower formation levels rather than with the brigade to which they were officially attached. As a result, lower units usually but unofficially took that chaplain “as their own”. Chaplains reciprocated by adopting individual unit idiosyncracies such uniforms (especially highlander), insignia, etc., with or without combination of prescribed CCS insignia. I might add that this was officially against orders and discouraged, although to my knowledge, never enforced. This is also true with the wearing, or not wearing, of clerical collars. I have two panoramic photos of the entire CCS overseas taken in 1943 and again in 1945 that clearly show these variations amongst individuals. This was most common with the army chaplains. However I will also mention that I have seen written accounts from WW2 chaplains who indicated they preferred to wear their chaplain insignia as it emphasized their unique role within the unit. In the case of the RCAF and RCN, chaplains were generally assigned to specific ports or stations that had sufficient personnel to justify that attachment, or were given a roving command area assignment. Therefore, with the exception of a few of the larger warships in the RCN, the close association between smaller units and a chaplain, as seen in the army, was minimized.

5) There were 9 full-time Jewish chaplains serving in Canada’s military after 1941; CASF and RCAF – no RCN Jewish chaplains. There were also several part-time Jewish chaplains who served in various cities in Canada. Jewish chaplains during WW2 (there were none in service after the war until recently) came under the administration and establishment of either the army’s or RCAF’s Protestant chaplain services.

6) After 1941, the RCAF and RCN were given their own officially recognized and separate chaplain services. These chaplains reported to either a Chief of the RCAF Chaplain Service or a Chaplain of the Fleet. As with the army there were parallel organizations for RCs and Protestants. Prior to that point, the army supplied chaplain resources, or civilian officiating chaplains were supplied (an officiating chaplain is generally a civilian under contract to the military) to the navy and air force. Obviously, these services were much smaller than their army counterpart. After the war, the RCAF and RCN chaplain services continued as a separate entity to the CCS and later, the RCAChC (after 1948) until the three services unified in 1968 under a Principal Chaplain or Chaplain General (RC or Protestant).

7) I note the photos of the various CCS insignia worn by Canadian chaplains in Italy. There are also a couple other shoulder flashes that were worn, either officially or unofficially. If my monitor’s colours and eyesight are accurate, the ones shown from top to bottom are: yellow lettering on purple melton background with yellow edging, yellow lettering on melton maroon (some might call it purple) with no edging, printed yellow lettering on purple canvas background. I also have in my collection, examples with yellow lettering on black melton background with yellow edging, and coarse yellow lettering ‘Canadian Chaplain Service’ over ‘R.C.’ on purple melton background (the latter is most probably a handmade modification by a serving chaplain in Italy). With respect to the formation sleeve patches, all divisions, both Canadian corps, the 1st Canadian Army and the 1st and 2nd Armoured Brigades all had CCS embroidered melton patches. Officially there were no printed canvas counterparts but I have in my collection divisional, corps and army CCS printed canvas patches that were given to me about 25 years ago from a military colleague in Ottawa. I know they were not officially authorized and may just be clever reproductions, fakes, etc., but, given the Ottawa and military association, may have actually been prototypes. Regardless, they are consistent in design and manufacture with other WW2 canvas patches and are nonetheless interesting. There is also some evidence of a CCS patch with purple background. A discussion thread already exists on this patch elsewhere in the forum, I believe, but, as with the other individuals in that thread, I have no answer or insight for this one.

[Bill A]

Mike, Thanks for the excellent references. This is a great summary and clarifies several issues. Clarification. All the responses are from David, eg where "I" is used that is David commenting, not Mike?
One question at this time. In #2, the RCAChC is indicated as having been organized in 1948. Would it be fair to assume that until that point in time the padres of the Canadian army continued to wear the CCS insignia as appropriate?