NZ reinforcement numerals

[pukman]

Having just witnessed a fiery debate on New Zealand reinforcement numeral badges sold as Australian territorial numerals on the Australian section of the forum ,it raises the question which constitutes which .Unfortunately I have never really collected the NZ numerals as there has always been bigger fish to fry. I have a small sample that were in the effects of my Grand father who was a WW1 veteran .Having seen and handled a few over the years however I don't recall them having the indents between the numbers of the ones being sold recently (which are also stamped Stokes and sons ,Melbourne) .So what is what ??

Show us your reinforcement numerals and lets work this one out and clear up the confusion

Cheers Iain

1st pic my lot (no makers marks)

[Tinto]

Hi Iain,
I don't have many numeral badges but agree with your comments about the indents. I do have "18"s with just a single joining bar in the middle or at the bottom.
My "20" is unlike yours, it has just the one joining bar in the centre.
Cheers, Tinto

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by pukman

Having just witnessed a fiery debate on New Zealand reinforcement numeral badges sold as Australian territorial numerals on the Australian section of the forum ,it raises the question which constitutes which .Unfortunately I have never really collected the NZ numerals as there has always been bigger fish to fry. I have a small sample that were in the effects of my Grand father who was a WW1 veteran .Having seen and handled a few over the years however I don't recall them having the indents between the numbers of the ones being sold recently (which are also stamped Stokes and sons ,Melbourne) .So what is what ??

Show us your reinforcement numerals and lets work this one out and clear up the confusion

Cheers Iain

1st pic my lot (no makers marks)

A lot of talk with no proof supplied

[pukman]

I have bought badges off ''Viligans'' and he kindly supplied me with photo's of his Australian metal and cloth insignia .I 'm sure he knows what he is talking about in the Australian line .(see the Australian section, under General and of the same title thread as my own)

What I would like to establish is if these ''Stokes and sons'' numerals were worn by NZ reinforcements as he says ,as they differ from what I would call the archetypical reinforcement shoulder numerals ,that I have seen .

No doubting some NZ shoulder titles were made by Stokes however (but not many)

[atillathenunns]

Stokes did supply some shoulder titles and badges to NZ Reinforcements, all of which are known such as the Stokes made NZMC badges and the NZMGS shoulder titles.
That is why it is a bit of a surprise that Vigilans has made claims that the Stokes numerals were made for NZ Reinforcements, as everybody knows NZ Reinforcement shoulder numerals were made by the NZ camp jewellers in the camps which explains the various sizes of numerals, whereas the regulation numerals were all 15mm and were manufactured by Gaunt.

Until proof of Stokes made badges being worn by NZ Reinforcements can be produced they should be treated by kiwi collectors as Australian badges and not as New Zealand badges.

[pukman]

It is a pity, although not surprising, that the Australian version of this thread was closed down before measured arguments were aired .

To summarise the Australian thread ,one party was accusing the other of selling NZ reinforcement numerals as Australian territorial numbers, as the latter would garner more money on internet auction sites

However the numerals were stamped with a Australian maker and are a different design than the typical NZ numeral. Although I would not rule out the possibility of this .

[stevjp]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Stokes did supply some shoulder titles and badges to NZ Reinforcements, all of which are known such as the Stokes made NZMC badges and the NZMGS shoulder titles.
That is why it is a bit of a surprise that Vigilans has made claims that the Stokes numerals were made for NZ Reinforcements, as everybody knows NZ Reinforcement shoulder numerals were made by the NZ camp jewellers in the camps which explains the various sizes of numerals, whereas the regulation numerals were all 10mm and were manufactured by Gaunt.

Until proof of Stokes made badges being worn by NZ Reinforcements can be produced they should be treated by kiwi collectors as Australian badges and not as New Zealand badges.

Guys, a recent pick-up, a NZFA title with Stokes maker mark.
Regards
James

[Wayne Ihaka]

Brent, why would Australians make numeral badges of this size when they have no use for them? Their numeral badges are 20mm.

Funny also how they are the same size as NZ numeral badges and end at #50 which just coincides with the last reinforcement draft called to camp in NZ.

Finally if all Australian made badges are for Australian use as you say these stokes made numeral badges are why do we have Stokes made NZ shoulder titles and other badges from WW1 period which would be reasonable to assume were issued to NZ troops?

you call for proof on NZ use, they fit the size of NZ badges that would have been used but conversely there is absolutely no evidence that they were ever used for Australian purposes being the wrong size.

I would say they are far more likely to have been used by NZ than Australian troops based on what I have heard here

[scotch]

Sadly away from my collection at the moment so can't post any examples of Australian hat numerals that I have, but they would look no different generally to vigilans examples. Most have pebbled attachment bars to front, all have lugs centre, east and west position, all are solid construction and all 19-20mm in height.

Cheers Scotch

[saumua]

Guys I will ask Geoff Oldham when these Aussie made numbers started turning up. From memory they are not seen on old uniforms so may be unissued stock but Geoff has a longer view than most of us I suspect. I recall that the appearance of these Aussie made numbers in NZD is not that long ago but will ask and revert.

[Tinto]

Hi All,
Does anyone know the seller of these Stoke marked numerals and asked him about provenance? Although these numerals look old there is always the possibility they are fakes.
Cheers, Tinto

[vigilans]

You have gone quiet Brent?

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Wayne Ihaka

Brent, why would Australians make numeral badges of this size when they have no use for them? Their numeral badges are 20mm.

Wayne oddly as it seems I don’t have the answer for that yet, but I am sure just by discussing it we may actually solve this mystery.

Originally Posted by Wayne Ihaka

Funny also how they are the same size as NZ numeral badges and end at #50 which just coincides with the last reinforcement draft called to camp in NZ.

The last reinforcements to enter camp were the 51st Reinforcements. However men who were to make up the 52nd, 53rd and 54th Reinforcements had received their call up papers and dates of which they had to report at camp.

Originally Posted by Wayne Ihaka

Finally if all Australian made badges are for Australian use as you say these stokes made numeral badges are why do we have Stokes made NZ shoulder titles and other badges from WW1 period which would be reasonable to assume were issued to NZ troops?

Wayne keep your eye on the little ball, I never said that “all Australian made badges are for Australian use.”
Take your time, reread my comments especially where I say “So far.” If you look hard enough you will see I am simply collecting information, yes it may look like I am pushing Vigilans buttons, that’s because I am, sadly he is on the right track but I am starting to think the voices echoing in his head are preventing him from seeing a much bigger picture.

Originally Posted by Wayne Ihaka

You call for proof on NZ use.

Calling for proof seemed logical to me.

Originally Posted by Wayne Ihaka

They fit the size of NZ badges that would have been used but conversely there is absolutely no evidence that they were ever used for Australian purposes being the wrong size.

So far as I can see, there has been absolutely no evidence produced that the Stoke numerals in question were ever used by New Zealand Reinforcements.

Originally Posted by Wayne Ihaka

I would say they are far more likely to have been used by NZ than Australian troops based on what I have heard here

I myself am leaning toward the Stokes made numerals having never have been worn at all.

However just as a point of interest, the amount of “14” numerals sold by ‘Big-mama-nz’ on Trade me is around 17, and the number of “32” numerals was also around 17.

Wayne if you took the time to count up all the numerals that Big mama has sold on Trade me you will start to see patterns emerging.
The most notable pattern is that Big mama has only sold numerals between 14 and 50.
14 = 17
15 = 1
16 = 0
17 = 0
18 = 3
19 = 0
20 = 11

I believe the shortages of numerals from 15 to 19 will be our best hope to ascertain if these badges were worn New Zealand reinforcements.
So to prove it lets see what 15, 16, 17, 18 & 19 NZ reinforcement shoulder titles are in forum members collections?????????????

It has been almost one year since we started to see badges such as the Stokes numerals flood Trade me, and it is interestingly just over one year since we started to see NZMC collar badges (made by Stokes) 11th Auckland MR badges and Bugle horn cap and collars also flood the Trade me market by the seller Kamasu.
The interesting part is that Big-mamma-nz (Anna) and Kamasu (Mark) both happen to live in Palmerston North.

Originally Posted by vigilans

You have gone quiet Brent?

For someone who kept on mentioning “I don't really care” I am not sure why you are still here, but if you are serious about getting to “the crux of this conundrum” stop acting the dick and contribute like a grown up.

[Corey]

This could be of interest as per those numbers. photos I took last year at the Auckland Museum.
Interesting these numbers start at 17?? and not the stokes type.
The only (camp cut) numbers I have are 23 x2, 24, 31.

Cheers
Corey

[Tinto]

Hi Brent,
You wrote:
I believe the shortages of numerals from 15 to 19 will be our best hope to ascertain if these badges were worn New Zealand reinforcements.
So to prove it lets see what 15, 16, 17, 18 & 19 NZ reinforcement shoulder titles are in forum members collections?????????????

I have 3 "18"s, 1 "19".
I do have separate "1" and "5" for 15th but not sure if that is pukka.

Cheers, Tinto