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  #16  
Old 20-03-22, 06:55 PM
grumpy grumpy is offline
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Originally Posted by 17thairborne View Post
The cap badge does look like that of the Northumberland Fusiliers. Perhaps it was the members of the 1st Battalion which was in NA in 1943 when XXX Corps advanced along the coast to eventually reach Sousse and beyond. I am not sure if they also had an AT Platoon in their Table of Organization and Equipment, (TO&E) not sure what the British term is for that.
Attachment 265541
War Establishment.
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  #17  
Old 20-03-22, 07:13 PM
17thairborne 17thairborne is offline
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Thanks for clarifying the terminology!
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  #18  
Old 22-03-22, 11:59 AM
Mike B Mike B is offline
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Originally Posted by 17thairborne View Post
To all who have posted the links and images this will be of great help for my posts on my website. I figured there would be many of you who could look at thhe image and quickly deduce the location and get a confirmation. I do love the "then and now" format and your efforts will help with this.

I suppose it may not be a good idea for me to join with 5 other lads and recreate the image with a Nazi flag on the street in modern times on the exact site, but it would be a fun exercise to dress in the same looking clothes, the Tommy helmet, dagger and shirt with RAF emblem and recreate the photo. Perhaps for a new program with a bit ofa history lesson.

I have another very nice image of some men from what is likely an HD anti-tank uiti posing with a Kubelwagen, motor cycle, flag, MP-40 and helmet. I'll post that soon. It is near Sousse, Algeria and I surmise the HD was the parent unit and this may have been one of the AT Platoons of one of their Infantry Battalions. Very faint images of cap badges showing. I am still doing my research there, but so far I find the copywright issues are keeping some things hidden with regards to published unit histories.

My forte is the 139th Airborne Engineer Battalion, so if I can help in any way there I will be happy to return the favor. So that you realize I am not a one-time poster looking only to soak up information, rather to also contribute to the wealth of knowledge, I post a link to my book on the subject of the 139th AEB, published a few years ago and now out of print:

https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Talon-I.../dp/0988760703

Since I don't believe in neccessarily making money for what the men of old have done for us, I have also published the book in the creative commons for all to use:

http://castraponere.com/bloodonthetalon/VolumeI.pdf

This is the level of work that I aspire to when researching. ANyway, I thank you all for your help and look forward to posting a few new images of the AT Platoon for your enjoyment.
Very many thanks for the link - it looks an excellent well researched piece of work - the trouble you go to with detail is obvious and admired ...
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  #19  
Old 22-03-22, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 17thairborne View Post
Here is the AT Platoon image I promised.
Attachment 265533
Attachment 265534

They're wearing dark coloured berets by the look of it.
Possibly members of an Army Commando unit?
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  #20  
Old 22-03-22, 01:50 PM
17thairborne 17thairborne is offline
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Mike,
Thank you for the kind comments.

Oz
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  #21  
Old 22-03-22, 01:54 PM
17thairborne 17thairborne is offline
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Originally Posted by leigh kitchen View Post
They're wearing dark coloured berets by the look of it.
Possibly members of an Army Commando unit?
As I understand the BLACK was worn by RTR and the GREEN by the Commandos.

ANy ideas on the Cap Badge? Id does not look at all like the RTR cap badge, nor the badge of the Commandos. I am still leaning toward the Northumberland Fusiliers as I think their beret was black also.
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  #22  
Old 22-03-22, 02:23 PM
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Royal Tank Regiment and Royal Armoured Corps would be black, yes, the Commando's green beret was worn not just by Royal Marines but by Army Commando personnel who wore a variety of parent Regiment badges.
The badges look to be RNF or RWF but I'm not firm on those at all, given the quality of the image.
I'd considered the RTR / RAC black beret. Some infantry battalions were converted to RAC units, some adopting the RAC badge, some retaining their infantry badges, sometimes in a white metal version.
The RNF didn't wear black berets, wearing GS caps, Field Service Caps etc, they adopted berets after WWII, dark blue ones were introduced during the early 1950s.
I don't know of a RNF or RWF RAC Battalion that served in Algeria (which doesn't mean they didn't, I just don't know much about the subject).
There is at least one member of RNF who was in 6 Commando buried at Bone in Algeria.
It could be that the men in the photo are wearing the black beret as they're RTR or RAC, the badges not being RNF or RWF.

Last edited by leigh kitchen; 22-03-22 at 02:29 PM.
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  #23  
Old 22-03-22, 07:33 PM
17thairborne 17thairborne is offline
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Originally Posted by leigh kitchen View Post
Royal Tank Regiment and Royal Armoured Corps would be black, yes, the Commando's green beret was worn not just by Royal Marines but by Army Commando personnel who wore a variety of parent Regiment badges.
The badges look to be RNF or RWF but I'm not firm on those at all, given the quality of the image.
I'd considered the RTR / RAC black beret. Some infantry battalions were converted to RAC units, some adopting the RAC badge, some retaining their infantry badges, sometimes in a white metal version.
The RNF didn't wear black berets, wearing GS caps, Field Service Caps etc, they adopted berets after WWII, dark blue ones were introduced during the early 1950s.
I don't know of a RNF or RWF RAC Battalion that served in Algeria (which doesn't mean they didn't, I just don't know much about the subject).
There is at least one member of RNF who was in 6 Commando buried at Bone in Algeria.
It could be that the men in the photo are wearing the black beret as they're RTR or RAC, the badges not being RNF or RWF.
Thank you for that summation of the beret use and colour. I did determine that the 1st Bn of the RNF was in NA up until September 1943 with the companies farmed out within the Corps, which fits, with the exception of the black berets. Most of the companies (HQ, W, X, Z) were attached to the 1st, 8th and 10th Armored Divisions, so it is conceivable they wore their RNF insignia on the RTR beret perhaps. Unless there is a distinction between RTR and an Armored Division wherein the black beret was not worn.
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  #24  
Old 22-03-22, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by 17thairborne View Post
I am thinking they would most likely be Glider Pilots who landed
I see nothing (shirts, trousers, shoes, headgear etc.) that even remotely allows to assume a GPR connection.
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  #25  
Old 22-03-22, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by 17thairborne View Post
Thank you for that summation of the beret use and colour. I did determine that the 1st Bn of the RNF was in NA up until September 1943 with the companies farmed out within the Corps, which fits, with the exception of the black berets. Most of the companies (HQ, W, X, Z) were attached to the 1st, 8th and 10th Armored Divisions, so it is conceivable they wore their RNF insignia on the RTR beret perhaps. Unless there is a distinction between RTR and an Armored Division wherein the black beret was not worn.
Not all units within an armoured division wore the black beret, the RTR, RAC ones did.
(As an aside, nothing much to do with anything, during the 1970's I was in "X" Company of 1st Bn Royal Regiment of Fusiliers which until 1968 was "X" Company of 1st Bn Royal Northumberland Fusiliers).
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  #26  
Old 22-03-22, 11:25 PM
17thairborne 17thairborne is offline
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Originally Posted by Luc View Post
I see nothing (shirts, trousers, shoes, headgear etc.) that even remotely allows to assume a GPR connection.
I appreciate that, but it seemed to me that it appears most of the shoes and clothing are more civlian than military. I was thinking off duty, but am not at all familiar with typical off-duty ear.

I did read the caption again, and they stated VE day, which is 6 weeks after VARSITY, so other units could be assumed, but the crest does seem to me to be RAF.

It is still an open case as best I can tell then.
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  #27  
Old 22-03-22, 11:27 PM
17thairborne 17thairborne is offline
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Originally Posted by leigh kitchen View Post
Not all units within an armoured division wore the black beret, the RTR, RAC ones did.
(As an aside, nothing much to do with anything, during the 1970's I was in "X" Company of 1st Bn Royal Regiment of Fusiliers which until 1968 was "X" Company of 1st Bn Royal Northumberland Fusiliers).
That is a very nice connection for you if this in fact them. I cannot seem to find any of the detailed unit histories that are avalable in pdf form as for for the US units, complete with photos and rosters in many cases.

Is there a similar cache of data available for british WW2 units containing accounts of battle movements, maps, photos and narrative? I did find this book available:

History Of The Royal Northumberland Fusiliers In The Second World War: History Of The Royal Northumberland Fusiliers In The Second World War

Can anyone confirm if it is worth spending $36.00 for with regards to detail, maps, narrative etc?
cover.jpg

Last edited by 17thairborne; 23-03-22 at 12:05 AM.
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  #28  
Old 10-04-22, 11:18 PM
17thairborne 17thairborne is offline
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Thaks to all with the help of the location. Here is a composite blended as best as I can.
Kensington PLace.jpg
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