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  #31  
Old 15-11-09, 08:51 PM
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Quite fascinating. Does raise the question why the 5/6th then decided not to wear their collar badges in their berets but opted for a self-sourced cast gold one?
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  #32  
Old 15-11-09, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54Bty View Post
I will get round to the pictures later. In the mean time from Colin Churchill's book 'History of the British Army Infantry Collar Badge' Stafford Knot in white metal worn from 1949 to amalgamation, pattern number 14033, sealed 6th December 1948. Silver aa pattern number 19230, sealed 23rd January 1964 (auth 54/Inf/8522) worn by 5th Bn.

Mine fell from the store shelf in 1992.
Hi 54Bty,

OK - I'll go through the Staffordshire file again and see what I come up with. Most of the info in the file is from 1968 onwards. I'll also check the Territorial Army Reorganisation file but any information on collar badges I probably would have skipped when I was at the National Archives basing my research on cap badges.

Regards

Chris
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  #33  
Old 15-11-09, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
Quite fascinating. Does raise the question why the 5/6th then decided not to wear their collar badges in their berets but opted for a self-sourced cast gold one?
Hi Alan,

Dunno but 54Bty collar badge is silver.


REgards

Chris

Last edited by Alan O; 15-11-09 at 09:05 PM.
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  #34  
Old 15-11-09, 09:02 PM
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IMO,Major Edwards obviously kept well in touch with the current badges being worn ,whatever the official 'line' & updated his books regularly. His contacts in the forces,etc would have been very numerous.
The pic shows that the 1968 book was correct for that period, however briefly it applied (6 weeks or 6 months.....whatever).
The South Staffs, 'Knot only' collar ,has been around ,since the 1920's,at least & is found in GM & WM,without too much trouble. A natural progression to a/a may have occured up to amalgamation (1959 ?) Then been rejected later,it seems(?).
I think that the badge found in die-cast anodised metal(not neccessarily a/a ?) was probably unofficial, but obviously a lot were made & used. Or they may be using 'old' Sth Staff collars ?
Just some thoughts here,
Steve

PS: my slow replying let some answers occur b4 this
PPS: it seems the GM version is prior to 1949 then

Last edited by dragonz18; 15-11-09 at 10:20 PM.
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  #35  
Old 16-11-09, 08:06 AM
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I don't think that you can take his word as gospel on anything as I would point out that he shows at least one badge, the Somerset Yeomanry and Light Infantry, that was designed but never made as a cap badge as the unit went out of existance. His books are a useful record of what he thought was being worn at the time particualrly with regards to the TA unit IDs.

As far as rejecting it perhaps we are at cross purposes. May I suggest that while it was acceptable as a collar for the South Staffs, it was rejected as a cap badge for the 5/6th Staffs. As such you are both right. As an aside the collar was worn pre 1914 as the obituary photo attached shows for Henry Richard Walter Knott, 7937, was in the South Staffordshire Regiment, 1st battalion. He was a Corporal and he died on 24th (26th) October 1914 at Lanniluke. He is commemorated on the Menin Gate at Ypres, in Belgium.


Now the picture shows a Staffs Bn wearing it (presumably in 1968 or so). This badge is either a white metal collar badge or a privately bought shiny (anodised if you prefer) cast gold badge. However for the purist a/a collectors it is neither an anodised aluminium badge or a MOD supplied badge. Each to his own as to whether you would value it in your collection.

The only thing that surprises me is that a dealer has not ordered some gold a/a from Firmins or more likely LB&B company and met the market demand with them as has happened with the remainder of the 1968 TA units.

Alan

Alan
Attached Images
File Type: gif KnottHRW.gif (8.8 KB, 39 views)

Last edited by Alan O; 16-11-09 at 03:21 PM.
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  #36  
Old 16-11-09, 08:57 AM
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Unfortunately the photograph was only captioned ‘the 5/6th North Staffords about to embark for the annual camp 1st to 8th July’

What I can see is the soldiers wear the 47 pattern BD uniform, 37 pattern webbing and carry the No4 Enfield rifle. The 4th and 5th soldier look like they could be in the Catering Corps.

The Ship Mona's Isle, I have found a web site http://www.simplonpc.co.uk/IOM_Monas_Isle5_1951.html which shows the ship with a white top rail dated 1951. Services:- From Douglas (Isle of Man) to Liverpool (all year). Seasonal services from Douglas to Belfast, Dublin, Ardrossan, Heysham, Llandudno. Excursions Liverpool-Llandudno. 2490 tons, 345ft long, 2393 passengers.

John
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  #37  
Old 16-11-09, 10:05 AM
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John,

Thanks. The TA are certainly equipped in 'old' kit which unless you knew the dates of the 5/6th you might have placed in much earlier in the decade.

Alan
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  #38  
Old 17-11-09, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hagwalther View Post
Hi 54Bty,

Can you provide reverse view shots of one of the A/A collar badges and also an angled close up shot of one of the lugs. I would like to see who made these items and possibly put a date of manufacture to them.

Regards

Chris
The images as requested.

And some others just because they were there.

Last edited by 54Bty; 09-02-22 at 05:30 PM.
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  #39  
Old 17-11-09, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54Bty View Post
The images as requested.
Hi 54Bty,

You said you obtained these in 1992 - right?

Now this is one area I'm not really upto speed yet but the colour of the solder used on the lug and body looks very modern to me - modern being 1980's onwards.

I have to do more research into this area but my gut feeling is that these are not from the 1960's.

Regards

Chris
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  #40  
Old 03-10-13, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dak580 View Post
Unfortunately the photograph was only captioned ‘the 5/6th North Staffords about to embark for the annual camp 1st to 8th July’

What I can see is the soldiers wear the 47 pattern BD uniform, 37 pattern webbing and carry the No4 Enfield rifle. The 4th and 5th soldier look like they could be in the Catering Corps.

The Ship Mona's Isle, I have found a web site http://www.simplonpc.co.uk/IOM_Monas_Isle5_1951.html which shows the ship with a white top rail dated 1951. Services:- From Douglas (Isle of Man) to Liverpool (all year). Seasonal services from Douglas to Belfast, Dublin, Ardrossan, Heysham, Llandudno. Excursions Liverpool-Llandudno. 2490 tons, 345ft long, 2393 passengers.

John
The BD in the photo is the 1949 pattern. The 1947 pattern has much larger collars.
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  #41  
Old 03-10-13, 12:55 PM
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I happen to own one of these cap-badges to the 5/6 Staffs. Bought it in a postal auction a few years ago.

It is cast metal, probably made from electroplated cast zinc, but not a genuine AA cap-badge.

Biggest dud I ever bought in my life. Paid a fortune for it and as soon as I received it knew I'd been duped. It was advertised as 'anodised'. Foolishly perhaps, I assumed this to mean AA.

The very famous dealer involved ('every item guaranteed genuine') wd not accept a return under any circumstances. He sent me a copy of the picture shown earlier in this thread, of a Staffs unit marching next to a ship, as 'proof' the badge is as advertised.

Images attached, for your entertainment and enlightenment.
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File Type: jpg 5-6 Staffs Territorials, Reverse.jpg (40.4 KB, 52 views)
File Type: jpg 5-6 Staffs Territorials.jpg (57.1 KB, 38 views)
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  #42  
Old 04-10-13, 08:51 AM
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Alan O Alan O is offline
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William,

Thank you for taking the time to show it. On the positive side at least you know that the 5/6 Stafs did wear this badge design. On the negative side records show that it was entirely unofficial and not approved and no badge was officially sanctioned or produced in a/a.

This does however possibly increase the chance of yours being an unofficially procured badge correct to the period. Whether you would ever be able to sell it for anything like the price originally paid, is another matter I am afraid.

Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 04-10-13 at 08:52 AM. Reason: typo
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  #43  
Old 04-10-13, 09:57 AM
gus-gemma gus-gemma is offline
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Default North Staffs

William That is the same as I got from bosleys said to be the one shown in Kings book and from his collection I thought the same as you that it was A/A
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  #44  
Old 04-10-13, 11:32 AM
alan g alan g is offline
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I have one as well. !!!!!
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  #45  
Old 16-10-21, 08:29 AM
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North Stafford in AA by Gaunt London. it seems to have been used with a patch of card behind the knot to imitate the holland cloth backing, though it does appear to be cloth on card.
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File Type: jpg north staffords gaunt london f.jpg (60.6 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg north staffords gaunt london r.jpg (45.9 KB, 15 views)
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Jerry
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