The Grenadier Guards Officer Field Cap Badge

[leigh kitchen]

A volunteer unit unconnected to the Grenadier Guards?
The GG Grenade was used in white metal by an (artillery?) Volunteer unit which I can't recall the name of, why not a similar design with the mounted design?
That's all I've got, I offer nothing else to support that suggestion.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

A volunteer unit unconnected to the Grenadier Guards?
The GG Grenade was used in white metal by an (artillery?) Volunteer unit which I can't recall the name of, why not a similar design with the mounted design?
That's all I've got, I offer nothing else to support that suggestion.

Thanks Leigh, you just reminded me. There was a white metal version of this badge, sold on eBay some time ago.
Andy

[leigh kitchen]

Minus the crown which is present on the current eBay offering you referred to in post no. 1, flamed grenades, Maltese crosses, presumably all fair game to the Volunteers.

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

Minus the crown which is present on the current eBay offering you referred to in post no. 1, flamed grenades, Maltese crosses, presumably all fair game to the Volunteers.

Would be in WM.

regards

[leigh kitchen]

I thought it is? My eyes?

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

I thought it is? My eyes?

Now you have said that I am not sure.

Might be my eyes not yours?

regards

[Frank Kelley]

Okay, so were they officers badges in general or were they Grenadier Guards officers badges?

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Frank as mentioned in post 1, he says they came with a lot of officers badges.
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Toby
We know the grenade hasn't really changed much since the Crimean War ( Photographic evidence ) 165 years. Why would it have changed 20 odd years previous ? I know there is no evidence of this. That badge is in reversed metals, not used by the Grenadier Guards.
Andy

The 2nd and 3rd Foot Guards were much more straight forward as mentioned before. The 1st Foot Guards (Grenadiers) made a more gradual move to adopting grenade insignia, having used the garter strap for a much longer period previously. Undress caps, usually of forage type, had cloth badges initially as you know.

It seems to me that there is a strong likelihood that the first metal badges used were the standard pattern, flank company brass grenades. These were worn by all right flank companies, Guards and Line. There is no evidence that the Guards wore a different, special pattern. It was after all just one company (of 8) in each battalion.

My suggestion is that eventually, around 1838 when the peaked forage cap was issued to the Foot Guards, the Grenadiers simply fitted the flank company grenade badge to the entire battalion’s caps whilst retaining the brass garter strap on their cartridge pouches (cartouches). I’m suggesting that it ‘might’ be that at some point not long after, the First Class Staff (around 5 in most battalions, including the sergeant major, but the Guards probably had more) adopted a more elaborate badge with Queen Victoria’s cypher. I do not know if the badge shown is one of these but I’m suggesting that it might be. The beginning of the reign of a new Queen would be a good time to start.

It is of course true that we know such cyphers have been in white metal for some time, but we do not know for sure that they always have been (or do we?). I would love to see proof otherwise, but unless you can show me different, no badges that are unequivocally from 1838-48 seem to have survived. Photographic evidence only extends from the Crimean war, before that we have to rely upon the artwork of primary sources who were direct onlookers at the time. These latter show that brass badges were being worn that early on.

I’ve previously asked for someone (anyone) to post photos of early badges in the collection of the Grenadier Guards Museum, but none have been forthcoming. Brass numerals and flank company symbols from line regiment caps do exist in collections, so it would be odd for there to be no surviving insignia for the Grenadiers. I think that there are, but that in most cases they are simply the standard pattern flank company grenade (see attached image).

[Toby Purcell]

Here is what is thought to be a very fine Georgian period Grenadier Guards fused grenade with on the ball a ‘GR’ cypher, the reverse with two pierced broad tang fasteners that suggest a Senior NCOs’ shoulder belt plate mount, c1820-30s, showing that single metal badges with cyphers were not uncommon. Notice that the pattern of the flames is different to today.

[Bill]

It is a pure guess, but due to its rarity, is the gilt grenade with gilt crowned cypher mounted on the ball the RSM’s badge?

Kipling and King say that this is an officers’ forage cap badge that has continued through from 1896 (VR, KK889), the cypher specific to each monarch, up to and including Queen Elizabeth II. If this was the case they should be relatively common but the only one I’ve seen was for sale in Bosley’s Postal Auction (43) 25/01/2006, Lot 186 (and it made £330), described as “Grenadier Guards rare GvR Commissioned Quartermaster’s cap badge……”. The silver crowned cypher mounted version (KK1949) is attributed to “Staff” (meaning battalion SNCO’s above Colour Sergeants?) between 1911-1936, then Commissioned Quartermasters only post 1937.

Bill

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Bill

It is a pure guess, but due to its rarity, is the gilt grenade with gilt crowned cypher mounted on the ball the RSM’s badge?

Kipling and King say that this is an officers’ forage cap badge that has continued through from 1896 (VR, KK889), the cypher specific to each monarch, up to and including Queen Elizabeth II. If this was the case they should be relatively common but the only one I’ve seen was for sale in Bosley’s Postal Auction (43) 25/01/2006, Lot 186 (and it made £330), described as “Grenadier Guards rare GvR Commissioned Quartermaster’s cap badge……”. The silver crowned cypher mounted version (KK1949) is attributed to “Staff” (meaning battalion SNCO’s above Colour Sergeants?) between 1911-1936, then Commissioned Quartermasters only post 1937.

Bill

Yes, that is the 'type' of badge that I think it might be, although I did not know at what point in Queen Victoria's reign the specific subject badge (of this thread) was used. They are extremely rare because so few were required in each battalion and they were not that long in use when the full length of GG history is considered.

[Bill]

Thanks Toby
Here are the original entries from the 2006 catalogue for reference.
I've no idea when the VR badge was made, but its small size is interesting.
It has now been sold I think. Dis anyone note the number of flames?
Bill

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Bill

Thanks Toby
Here are the original entries from the 2006 catalogue for reference.
I've no idea when the VR badge was made, but its small size is interesting.
It has now been sold I think. Dis anyone note the number of flames?
Bill

Yes, I think that the badge was an early version of No 86. It was all gilt but with the cypher in 'fire gilt' which gave the impression that it was bimetal, but I think it's just that the fire gilt has preserved better, which it often does. There are numerous examples of that phenomenon.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Bill

Thanks Toby
Here are the original entries from the 2006 catalogue for reference.
I've no idea when the VR badge was made, but its small size is interesting.
It has now been sold I think. Dis anyone note the number of flames?
Bill

I have seen that but i don't believe its for the Quarter Master, again i don't believe there is any evidence to prove this. I reckon its just been re gilt or plated, and whoever didn't want to remove the cypher, so the cypher got done too. IMO.
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Its seems the badge in question has been removed from eBay, or the image shaped for a Victorian Royal Irish Rifles badge ?
Andy