1915 ISSUE SERVICE CAP

[Chrisr]

Irrespective, its a nice hat to have Simon.
Cheers
Chris

[JerryBB]

Very good cap, though I think it is probably from the interwar years. The letter above the WD arrow is the year rather than the numbers below. I don't know if it makes sense with your grandfathers history but W could be for 1934. Can you show the underside of the cap body and peak please.

[wardog]

Hello Jerry. I have heard that the letter can equal year post Great War- can you explain how that works? Regards, Paul.

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by wardog

Hello Jerry. I have heard that the letter can equal year post Great War- can you explain how that works? Regards, Paul.

Hi Paul,

the system for WWII is mostly agreed upon as running backwards starting with L from 1945, so;

45=L, 44=M, 43=N, 42=O, 41=P, 40=Q, 39=R, though for the pre and post wars periods it is not so certain how it works. I intend to look into it and try and establish it, though what is needed are examples that have the letter code above the WD arrow along with a dated label. I think for the postwar period it is a similar system with the letters running backwards with 1949 being R and so on to 1954 being M, though as I mentioned, more double marked items are needed to be certain.

I should also add that Z is sometimes seen on 1944 and 1945 dated items, though why this occurred is not known.

[MH331]

Although very mothed this is a textbook example of the M1905 Cap. I have shown both markings which are in the interior crown. This one dated 1916Hope they are useful.

Mark

[MH331]

An example of the M1916 Soft cap this dated 1917. WD stamp is virually non existent through wear.

Hope it is useful

Mark

[Joe Sweeney]

The original cap is post great War.

The 15 may refer to an area clothing depot post Great War and I believe pre-WWII. I don't know which one. My knowledge and desire to research after the Great War wanes a bit. I may be able to get that info as a researcher on Tropical helms shared that info on another forum.

Mark,

That is the latest dated Great War SD cap I've seen and nice to have the O on the RACD acceptance stamp. All Caps seem to have have changed to a P stamp around early 1917.


Joe Sweeney

[JerryBB]

O for 1916 and P for 17 seems to make sense as I have a vague memory that during WWI they ran alphabetically, so if we can work out what they did post war and when they started to run them in reverse alphabetical order we will probably have this system cracked. Also at some time they converted to putting the letter above the arrow rather than below.

[Joe Sweeney]

Jerry,


The letter meaning date doesn't work for the Great War.

The Great War stamps after June 1915 were meant to be identifiable to a single inspector--the number being that inspector (due to a controversy of substandard clothing being accepted).

I don't know exactly what the letters mean but may refer to an inspection branch or particular depot.

The Letter O went on to be used on stamps particular to Waterproof clothing from 1916 to 1918.

The Letters L, M, and N are commonly found on articles of SD clothing that are a mix of dates from 1915 thru 1918.

P is found on caps dated 1917 thru 1918 and I believe that caps were transfered from the O code due to the extreme growth of waterproof type clothing at the end of 1916 over loading that inspection unit.

E is sometimes found on articles of SD and articles of US clothing manufactured in the UK and accepted by the RACD for the US Gov't.

In 1918/19 the system changed again to one like the first WD 15 stamp.

I have several articles of 1918 dated clothing with the first type stamp in this thread. All are code G? and I assume that the article was made in 1918 and accepted under the new system (Post armistace?)

Joe Sweeney

[JerryBB]

Thanks for the information Joe. I wonder when the system was introduced then as I am fairly certain that it does work for WWII and beyond and it applies to headgear, tunics and other items made of cloth, such as webbing gear. Not sure if the numbers below the later WD arrow marks is a manufacturers code or relates to the type of item and is similar to that which you outline for WWI items.

[wardog]

Thanks Jerry. Can anyone say if the cap in this link is correctly marked for pre June 1916? Regards, Paul. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2512054487...84.m1436.l2649

[Joe Sweeney]

Originally Posted by wardog

Thanks Jerry. Can anyone say if the cap in this link is correctly marked for pre June 1916? Regards, Paul. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2512054487...84.m1436.l2649

Paul,


Yes, these marks are 100% correct for pre-war RACD acceptance stamps. This type of stamp was used on Contractor supplied items amd applied by a viewer after insprection at Pimlico.

Here is an example of a manufactured in 1906 and accepted in 1906 SD cap (pattern 6281/1905---16-Mar-05)




The Chinstrap is of the thrird type introduced in 1908 and continued on thru the Great War. The cap in the ebay photo has the second type--with leather sliders--which would have been left brown for SD caps.

In 1912, the lining was changed to all American cloth (pattern 7659/1912---29-Nov-12




I believe the Forage Caps followed suite but I'm not 100% sure as I don't really study anything beyond SD/KD.

Hope this helps,

Joe Sweeney

[wardog]

Very helpful Joe, Thank you. I did not know of the different types of chinstrap pre Great War. Do you have an image of the 1st type? The one on ebay I had taken for a latter officer's strap.
Also the number 8 under the arrow on the ebay cap and the number 12 on your 1st 1905 cap- can you confirm those numbers are the month? Regards, Paul.

[norfolk regt man]

Originally Posted by mark holden

An example of the M1916 Soft cap this dated 1917. WD stamp is virually non existent through wear.

Hope it is useful

Mark

Nice hat, i am sure there is one of these caps in a shed across the road, to krrc.

[Joe Sweeney]

Originally Posted by wardog

Very helpful Joe, Thank you. I did not know of the different types of chinstrap pre Great War. Do you have an image of the 1st type? The one on ebay I had taken for a latter officer's strap.
Also the number 8 under the arrow on the ebay cap and the number 12 on your 1st 1905 cap- can you confirm those numbers are the month? Regards, Paul.

Paul,

I can't 100% say the middle number is the month, but I assume it was. I have not seen any numbers over 12.

This is a photo of circa 1905/08 showing the second type chinstrap in use with leather sliders.



The first pattern associated with Cap (6281/1905--Mar 05) was considered too short and was lengthened in Nov 1905 (6821a) Somehere I have the measurements, but can't find right now.

In Sept 1908 the chinstrap was changed due to complaints received from the Cavalry corps about the leather sliders giving way too easily so a new strap was introduced with the brass friction buckles.

Not 100% certain that the forage caps followed this rule. The one on ebay does look a little too wide.

Joe Sweeney