Odd combo of formation signs: 6th SAAD, 5th US Army

[loupie1961]

I have recently purchased a BD blouse badged to a Sargent Major of the South African Engineer Corps serving in the 6th South African Armoured Division but possibly seconded to the 5th US Army. The combination of formations insignie stitched to the BD blouse is rather odd, comprehensive the usual SAEC metal titles, overseas service orange tab, embroidered South Africa arc nationality titles and both 5th US Army and 6th SAAD flashes. What does not seem to make too much sense are the "South Africa" curved titles, quite redundant since the BD blouse does not lack other signs denoting the nationality of the wearer. Have you met this kind of occurrence before, gents? Thank you so much for your kind help!

[54Bty]

The US 5th Army SSI was awarded to those units that served with them in Italy.
I am sure chapter and verse will be posted soon.

Marc

[loupie1961]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

The US 5th Army SSI was awarded to those units that served with them in Italy.
I am sure chapter and verse will be posted soon.

Marc

Thank you Marc, this is an occurrence I had overlooked, indeed!

[Milmed]

Just a gut feel but that looks like a made up uniform. The South Africa arm title is definitely out of place on that uniform. I hope you did not pay too much for it.

[Alex Rice]

Agree with Milmed. I don't remember seeing any uniforms both with The shoulder-strap title & red tab as well as a national title.
Cheers,
Alex

[loupie1961]

Hello everybody! thank you for the feedback. As a matter of fact I understand and share your doubts, still I am not sure the BD blouse has been made up. I mean, it looks like some kind of come back item, rather than a deliberate fake. Who would add the arc nationality titles on purpose, knowing that they would have been redundant? On the other hand, could an engineer seconded to the 5th US Army have wanted to add some titles that would explain openly his national belonging to the usually quite ignorant GIs? The BD blouse did not come alone, but in a lot (that could have put together) comprehensive of a 1940 dated SA MK II helmet, a pair of 1945 dated SA made battledress trousers, Canadian webbing belt, suspenders, revolver holster and compass pouch. So in the event the price paid for the BD blouse is balanced by the effective value of the other items in the lot (this is the second time only I have seen a pair of South African made BD trousers in almost 40 years of collecting).

[loupie1961]

I should have added that the BD blouse sports also two different Skill at arms forearm embroidered flashes: Light Machine Gun and VG (I guess Vickers Gun?). That's also quite odd for a sapper, isn't it?

[Milmed]

With those skill at arms badges it looks all the more that it is made up.. either to deceive or out of pure ignorance. You may need to look at contemporary photographs to see whether 6SAAD actually wore the American SSI, even though it was awarded to the unit. I have only seen it on ephemera but not on uniforms.

From what I am able to see, very little insignia was worn by 6SAAD troops on battledress uniform. Mostly only rank stripes were sewn onto the battledress jacket. Unit insignia was worn on a khaki drill slip on which showed the Div insignia, orange tab and unit shoulder title. The only instance I have seen where the Div insignia was sewn directly onto the jacket was in case of officers as there rank pips replaced the Div insignia on the khaki slip on shoulder boards.

[manchesters]

Interestingly I have never seen the VG in wreath skill at arms badge before.

Its clearly in SA colours but is it common over there?

regards

[loupie1961]

Originally Posted by Milmed

With those skill at arms badges it looks all the more that it is made up.. either to deceive or out of pure ignorance. You may need to look at contemporary photographs to see whether 6SAAD actually wore the American SSI, even though it was awarded to the unit. I have only seen it on ephemera but not on uniforms.

From what I am able to see, very little insignia was worn by 6SAAD troops on battledress uniform. Mostly only rank stripes were sewn onto the battledress jacket. Unit insignia was worn on a khaki drill slip on which showed the Div insignia, orange tab and unit shoulder title. The only instance I have seen where the Div insignia was sewn directly onto the jacket was in case of officers as there rank pips replaced the Div insignia on the khaki slip on shoulder boards.

I agree: usually it was officers BDs that had the 6th SAAD sewn to the BD blouse, because of the epaulette slip ons hosting the rank pips. Just wondering what could possibly make one to put together so many insignia on a single BD blouse that have almost no relation to each other....

[milhistry]

I've occasionally seen 6 Division flash in that position - NMR and DLI members IIRC. They weren't officers either but agree more common to see the slip ons.
The South Africa titles were apparently by some SA troops but usually by troops that were not part of SA Division eg independent SAEC and SACS outfits etc. To see both all on the same jacket does seem odd. Could be that a box of bits of different eras or people were made up by someone who didn’t know any better or for theatre purposes or by someone trying to make a quick buck. The individual items are great though.

[Alex Rice]

Hi Loupie
I suppose you can never rule out that it may be one of those original anomalies. It might be worth carefully picking off one of the badges and seeing if the material underneath is still dark which could indicate the badge has been there since new?
Cheers,
Alex

[Madziro]

I agree with the other contributors to this thread and believe that this tunic is made up by somebody for whatever reason. There is no point in wearing the embroidered titles when he has metal titles that indicate that he is a South African in any case. It is highly unlikely that a man in this unit would have qualified for such proficiency badges either.

The attached is an original BD blouse from the 6th SA Armd Div. I have the man's records and as an aside, attache them for interest. He was a signaller and was wounded at some point.

My late father was in the SA Corps of Signals in Italy during the war. As has been previously said there were SA signallers and engineers in Italy who were not part of the 6th SA Armd Div. They were all attached to the British 8th Army. It was these soldiers who were issued with South Africa shoulder titles and while the shoulder titles on your BD blouse are original WW2 era the majority of SA soldiers in 8th Army had red embroidered titles. I attach images of my late fathers titles and 8th Army badges as an example as well as a photo of him in Italy wearing the 8th Army patches.

Completely separate to this I have a war time VG badge in the collection and post it for interest.

[Madziro]

Some examples of SA made cloth proficiency badges for interest.

[manchesters]

Thanks for showing the above badges.

Is the VG for 'Vickers Gunner' or not?

regards