12th Lancers question

[Iain2]

Hi. Looking at 12th Lancers cap badge i see a few metal QC badges. My question is did the 12th ever wear this badge or was it a KC badge till amalg in 1960 . I have heard of the a/a 12th but read it may have been a Gaylor badge [ hope i got that bit right from memory ]
Iain

[Mike H]

Iain, 12th Lancers definitely wasnt a Gaylor badge. Every example I've seen in a/a has a HW Timings metal slider. QC a/a collars also exist.

People have put forward the theory that the 9th Lancers a/a badges were Gaylor items. Personally I doubt this, I was told that both the 9th and the 12th anodised badges were issued at the depot

[Iain2]

Thanks Mike. Thought i had got it wrong it may have been the 9th L i was thinking of . But did the 12th L wear the bi metal Queens crown badges do you know, as i have read on a few subjects of badges post coronation that queens crown badges were never worn except maybe officers or maybe private purchase until into the late 50's early 60's and as the 12th amalged in 1960 i have no idea .
Iain

[Mike H]

I've looked a few photos in books I have Iain,its hard to tell what crown is on the badge.
Theres a decent 9th L image in Linekar and Dine dated 1954.

[Mike H]

Iain I think if you have a look at the 9th /12th Museum . Org they have boxes of archive images of the 9th and 12th.
Have a look at 9_12L box 11 page 6. Some really good 12th L images of battledress and No1 dress blues. I'm using a mobile so the images aren't pin sharp but to me it's pretty clear that the QC cap is being worn. Page 7 100% a QC cap badge being worn,although it looks like KC collars.

[Iain2]

Thanks again Mike. Yes queens crown badge and they do look like kings crown collars , but as you enlarge picture they get a bit blured and i would say they are metal so thanks for helping answer my question ,
Iain

[hagwalther]

Hi Guys,

I would be very, very careful re: A/A examples of both the 9th and 12th Lancers. Both exist with blank sliders and some have a Timings marking on. This marking has been faked and is found (in fake format) on many other scarce items like the Tudor Crown Rifle Brigade badge.

Gaylor was a damn rogue and the more I hear of him the more I am disgusted by this person - I take some relief in that I do not collect pre-1950 items and am sure if he faked A/A pieces he also faked numerous other items which I would not want in my collection.

Note that I have recorded the A/A 9th Lancers as being ex-him in my book. The A/A 12th Lancers - I am uncertain of its origin.

The info I have for 9th Lancers and 12th Lancers are taken from the List of Changes entries dated 7th Jan 1955 and 18th July 1955 respectively.

For 9th Lancers:

Change No. C 6443
NEW PATTERN
Author: NEW PATTERN was for a W.M. item (Cat. No. CB 0431). The CB No. was to be retained for a ‘NEW PATTERN’ A/A item if such an item was later authorised.

For 12th Lancers:

Change No. C 6703
NEW PATTERN
Author: NEW PATTERN was for a G.M. and W.M. item (Cat. No. CB 1791). The CB No. was to be retained for a ‘NEW PATTERN’ A/A item if such an item was later authorised.

re: CB numbers above - all A/A badge CB number started from CB 3000.

I have no other info on the two A/A badges so assume that the matter stopped there. A pattern card or other doco would prove me wrong and I have no issue whatsoever with GM or WM examples of these two badges in St. Edwards Crown format.

Both these badges in A/A sell for quite a bit of money and while some collectors are happy with them I would not add either to my collection.

Regards,

Chris

[Iain2]

Thank you Chris for that bit of info' very interesting.
I think i have set my mind to collecting the Lancers QC badges in metal form [ though have seen both in a/a recently i believe there is a 9th on ebay blank slider and a timmings marked 12th on Buffs militaria i think ], The other two rgts 17/21st, metal moto from 1922 and a a/a though not sure what year this was then i think they had a new metal in 90's ? not sure about that as they amalged in 1993, and this is likewise with the 16/5th except a change from KC bi metal to QC a/a again with new metal in 90's.
Please feel free to put me right on anything. Cavalry is a whole new thing to me since returning to collecting. Used to be R.B. pretty straight forward to this...
Iain

[Mike H]

Please take note of the position of the badge in the cap. Very low,the 12th Lancers a/a badge is on an inverted J slider rather than an inverted L so would sit lower.
I'm 90% certain that the badge in the cap is anodised and 100% it's a QC

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Iain2

Thank you Chris for that bit of info' very interesting.
I think i have set my mind to collecting the Lancers QC badges in metal form [ though have seen both in a/a recently i believe there is a 9th on ebay blank slider and a timmings marked 12th on Buffs militaria i think ], The other two rgts 17/21st, metal moto from 1922 and a a/a though not sure what year this was then i think they had a new metal in 90's ? not sure about that as they amalged in 1993, and this is likewise with the 16/5th except a change from KC bi metal to QC a/a again with new metal in 90's.
Please feel free to put me right on anything. Cavalry is a whole new thing to me since returning to collecting. Used to be R.B. pretty straight forward to this...
Iain

Hi Iain,

The 17/21st Lancers used (at rank level) the A/A badge until amalgamated in 1993. There may have been PRI metal examples but I have never been concerned with PRI pieces so have not studied them and you may well know more about this than me.

However, in 1993 the Army Dress Committee approved the use of the 17th/21st badge for the Queen's Royal Lancers and in 1995 also for the Band of the Royal Lancers. This 'New Metal' cap badge is nickle silver with a barnished dead silver plate. As far as I know the A/A piece was retained for ranks.

To confuse matters, up to at least mid 2013 this officer’s cap badge was issued in Firmin & Sons Limited packaging with the description of ‘17/21ST LANCERS OFFICERS CAP BAD’.

This badge was delete from the inventory in August 2017.

The NSN of the badge was 8455-99-130-3556 and pattern No. 30056. An entry for this badge with given NSN may be found in (amongst other official doco) in COSA of 1995 and 1997 and also in JSP 768 which also shows the pattern No.

By March 2014, the ADC agreed to approve the wearing of the cap badge of The Royal Lancers [Other Ranks] (as the regiment was then named). This badge was nickle silver with bright silver/gilt plate and coloured pennants and a scroll ‘OR GLORY’. Other cloth backed badges (but with metal detailing) were also authorised for officers and ranks depending on head gear.

Note: The Royal Lancers, established on the 2nd May 2015, became The Royal Lancers (Queen Elizabeth’s Own) on the 5th April 2017.

Regards,

Chris