Rarest CEF Badge Ever??

[whizzbang]

This might just be it:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/350496946690?...ht_2050wt_1398

According to Charlton "the only known example of this badge is held in the collection of the Royal Canadian Military Institute in Toronto". I've never been there - anyone know if it is a 1st Tank Bn badge with an overlay?

Despite the provenance of Bob Russell's collection, one has to have to have a lot of faith to drop big bucks on something like this, I think?

Cheers, Ian.

[whizzbang]

Here is the photo for posterity, since the link above will only work for a couple of weeks.

[Voltigeur]

If you look at all the photographs, the last one shows the back and the reverse of "1st".
Jo

[ncc]

doubt if its been done ww1, the pink you can see in the recess is the copper that comes to the surface when a brass or gilding metal badge is brazed.
even the army workshops would have had the right dip to remove it.
it seems to be a lost art, thats why you see it on recently repaired and heated badges.
bet it makes a mint!
Bob

[whizzbang]

Anyone know if the example at the Royal Canadian Military Institute also has the "2nd" overlaid on a 1st Bn badge??

[Bill A]

I think Larry Will has been taken images of that collection. He may know.
It will be interesting to see the price realized. Since the Yukon badges set the recent high price, this badge may exceed those prices realized. It is moving up, and a couple of heavy hitters appear not to have bid yet.

[jim a]

Without any photographic evidence.... that it's an overlay on a first badge that nobody has seen yet... that the premier collectors have never seen one... that I would want to compare it with said example at the RCMI to see if it was one of 2 in existence .... there are a ton of If's on this one....can anyone tell if the 2 is a separate piece from the ND that's been put together?

[mtrpltpara]

Based on what appears in Charlton, is this an 2nd battalion officers badge?, as the OR`s were made by Hemsley and were pickled brass whereas this is gilt and no makers name.
But.....the 1st battalion makers are given as Hemsley,Tiptaft and the badges as pickled brass with silver overlay, silver plate and sterling silver. So it appears to be a badge by an unknown maker with a previously unknown finish, interesting to see where the bidding ends.
Bill.

[ncc]

Originally Posted by mtrpltpara

Based on what appears in Charlton, is this an 2nd battalion officers badge?, as the OR`s were made by Hemsley and were pickled brass whereas this is gilt and no makers name.
But.....the 1st battalion makers are given as Hemsley,Tiptaft and the badges as pickled brass with silver overlay, silver plate and sterling silver. So it appears to be a badge by an unknown maker with a previously unknown finish, interesting to see where the bidding ends.
Bill.

just out of interest,what do they mean by pickled brass in this instance?
Bob

[DavidS]

Originally Posted by ncc

just out of interest,what do they mean by pickled brass in this instance?
Bob

Bob: pickled brass finishes are chemical-reaction finishes as opposed to gilding the brass. Results in a variety of colours, depending on the acid(s) or reagents used--toned greens or greys, blacks, browns. If you look at the corps & miscellaneous badges on Page 3 of the CEF project page, you'll see all kinds of varieties in the mounted rifles, depot bn.s and medical badges (as well as a 1st Bn. Tank badge).

[ncc]

thanks for that ,explains the bright yellow of some canadian badges.
Bob

[mtrpltpara]

WELL.........
At that price i presume its identical to the badge in Toronto, now watch for the copies!!
Bill.

[Bill A]

Price realized $3700 US. Certainly not a record price, but very respectable. Ebay doesn't seem to be the best venue to sell the very rare badges. Auction houses still seem to fetch the highest prices.

[DavidS]

Originally Posted by ncc

thanks for that ,explains the bright yellow of some canadian badges.
Bob

Bob: the bright yellow isn't a pickled finish, if I am thinking of what you are thinking of. A lot of WWII badges were over-produced and basically mint surplus stock is still kicking around (8th Princess Louise's, 7th/11th Hussars, Hull, R.C. Medical Corps, etc.). The bright yellow is some sort of protective anti-tarnish coating on the gilt brass.

Pickled finishes aren't that cheesy. Pickling leaves a very high-quality finish, and often as not, the grey-green or bronze-green finishes were also elaborately toned as well.

[ncc]

Originally Posted by DavidS

Bob: the bright yellow isn't a pickled finish, if I am thinking of what you are thinking of. A lot of WWII badges were over-produced and basically mint surplus stock is still kicking around (8th Princess Louise's, 7th/11th Hussars, Hull, R.C. Medical Corps, etc.). The bright yellow is some sort of protective anti-tarnish coating on the gilt brass.

Pickled finishes aren't that cheesy. Pickling leaves a very high-quality finish, and often as not, the grey-green or bronze-green finishes were also elaborately toned as well.

yes i know about the surplus stock of canadian badges but they are still a lot brighter yellow than brit badges ,must be brass instead of gilding metal.
i asked about the pickling because over here an acid pickling solution ( i won't print the formular no need to give them the info) was used first to remove all the flux and scale produced by the brazing of the lugs slider etc.
then another dip (i won't print that either) to remove all the copper that has come to the surface and has not been removed by the first dip,giving the the bright finish that you find on unissued badges.
then if you want a bronze ,grey or green colour, various pickles are used after the cleaning. i won't print them either but most are highly toxic so maybe i should might get rid of some fakers.
thats why i can't understand why that 2nd badge if made 80yrs ago still has the copper on the surface.
Bob
ps how much would a 1st badge cost